Good evening everyone! Thanks in advance for your assistance.

I'm 3 months new to mobile auto repair / painting. I've had some growing pains but worked through them, and now I'd like to perfect my clear coat. I always end up with orange peel and I'd like to eliminate it, or at least drastically reduce it. Currently I have orange peel on every job. It’s not horrible, but when compared against the factory panels on the same car, you can notice a difference. I have done a lot of research and believe it's my gun settings / tools, atomization. I believe I'm ok with everything related to base coat, but really want to improve my clear coat. If you could help me, I'd really appreciate it.

Here are my tools / setup, along with questions:

I’m mobile and all tools / paints are in a van.

TURBINE
I use a turbine at 9.5 p.s.i. Yes, the air gets hot if used long enough. How detrimental is this when shooting clear? Does this contribute to orange peel?

3M ACCUSPRAY BOTTOM FEED CUP GUN
(not exactly sure what that's called, but it's NOT the top fed gravity HVLP, rather it's fed through pressure from the bottom.)
I’ve read varying sizes for the tips. They almost always say 1.3 for clear coat. What is that unit of measurement? Usually that’s directly mentioned along with a compressor and approximately 29 P.S.I., so does this even apply when using a turbine at 9.5 P.S.I.? I’ve also seen the tips listed as low as “.7” for clear coat. But my tips don’t have these numbers. My gun has a black threaded cap which holds in place a green aluminum atomizer with multiple holes for air flow, and on the atomizer is the number “5”. I have other base guns which vary from 7 to 10 and change in color / red / blue, etc., and this seems to dictate the size of the holes that do the atomization. For my setup, what aluminum cap / atomizer should I use to achieve the best possible smooth, glossy clear coat? Should this number be larger to allow more air flow, and would this in turn possibly provide better atomization and reduce orange peel?

SMALL TIP WITH SINGLE MATERIAL HOLE IN CENTER, DIRECTLY UNDER ALUMINUM ATOMIZER
I’m guessing this tip is what would be comparable to the .7 / 1.0 / 1.3 mentioned above. But my tip just has the number “29”. What unit of measurement is this and how does it correlate to the “1.3” recommended for clear coat, IF that is even recommended, given my setup with an HVLP turbine?

OTHER FACTORS – PLEASE TELL ME THE IMPORTANCE OF THEM:

MEDALION TEK ELITE CLEAR COAT
This is the clear I currently use. The clear is “Medium” and the activator is “Medium”. Any issues? Depending on surface / ambient temp, I use either a medallion “Rapid Cure”, or Nu-Evo Reducer, Fast / Medium / Slow. I usually put anywhere from 5 to 10 percent reducer in to try to achieve a better smooth clear, but still have a noticeable orange peal difference when compared to a factory panel. I have also previously used Nu-Evo clear coat, but still get the same orange peel results… again making me think I’ve narrowed it down more specifically to my gun setup / atomization. Both are decently quality clear coats as far as I know, but I still get orange peel.

I shoot clear regardless of ambient temperature, surface temp, or air hose temp. I live in southern California and it can get into the mid 90’s, with my panel / bumper being 120-140, and I’ll still shoot it. I don’t know how much this plays into orange peel, but if it’s too hot, I use a slow reducer. Honestly, it seems to be acceptable (please correct me if I’m way off, here…), and I have always had the same level of orange peel regardless of surface or ambient temperature. If I shoot clear when it’s 60 degrees and cloudy, I get the same results as when the surface temp is 120 / 130 degrees in direct sunlight. This really makes me want to focus on gun setup and eliminate that as much as possible.

I believe I’ve mentioned everything related to getting orange peel. If you need any further explanation of my setup, please ask. I really want to make my clear coat as smooth as possible. So if that’s not attainable with a turbine hvlp, please let me know. Any and all opinions and recommendations are sincerely welcomed. I want to get to the bottom of this and produce quality results without sanding and buffing every job. All the research I’ve done, along with all the hands-on trial and error really makes me believe I need to change my gun setup. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again for your help!

Well, first, welcome here...... and now on to the blood letting..... I'll put my answers/advice in bold just under your problems....

jjbeano wrote:Good evening everyone! Thanks in advance for your assistance.

I'm 3 months new to mobile auto repair / painting. I've had some growing pains but worked through them, and now I'd like to perfect my clear coat. I always end up with orange peel and I'd like to eliminate it, or at least drastically reduce it. Currently I have orange peel on every job. It’s not horrible, but when compared against the factory panels on the same car, you can notice a difference. I have done a lot of research and believe it's my gun settings / tools, atomization. I believe I'm ok with everything related to base coat, but really want to improve my clear coat. If you could help me, I'd really appreciate it.

Here are my tools / setup, along with questions:

I’m mobile and all tools / paints are in a van.

TURBINE
I use a turbine at 9.5 p.s.i. Yes, the air gets hot if used long enough. How detrimental is this when shooting clear?It can literally boil out all of the proper tail solvents that allow for the elimination of orange peel when using a turbine. Does this contribute to orange peel?How do you know this unit has that pressure? It would require a minimum of a 5 stage turbine to produce that kind of pressure at the gun tip and the largest turbine they make currently is a 4 stage producing 7 psi at the tip. If it is indeed a 5 stage it would have to have some inboard or outboard air intercooler to control the astronomical temp.s it would develop. You can make your own simple portable external cooler for any turbine by simply buying spa hose(connect to your hose with simple garden hose fittings) at Home Depot and coiling it around in a 5 gallon bucket toward the outside leaving the center open, then just dump ice or ice packs in the center.

3M ACCUSPRAY BOTTOM FEED CUP GUN
(not exactly sure what that's called, but it's NOT the top fed gravity HVLP, rather it's fed through pressure from the bottom.) Accuspray guns with cup/under siphon style guns are usually set up for wood finishing. If you want proper flowout with today's high solids clears you should be using a gravity gun probably with a pressure assist tube to the lid on the top mounted cup. This is the way you get turbine guns to handle the higher solids clears and reduce orange peel.
I’ve read varying sizes for the tips. They almost always say 1.3 for clear coat. What is that unit of measurement? Usually that’s directly mentioned along with a compressor and approximately 29 P.S.I., so does this even apply when using a turbine at 9.5 P.S.I.? I’ve also seen the tips listed as low as “.7” for clear coat. But my tips don’t have these numbers. My gun has a black threaded cap which holds in place a green aluminum atomizer with multiple holes for air flow, and on the atomizer is the number “5”. I have other base guns which vary from 7 to 10 and change in color / red / blue, etc., and this seems to dictate the size of the holes that do the atomization. For my setup, what aluminum cap / atomizer should I use to achieve the best possible smooth, glossy clear coat? Should this number be larger to allow more air flow, and would this in turn possibly provide better atomization and reduce orange peel? I think you need to back the truck up here and start with getting the gravity gun. Here is a web site for an Accupray dealer that carries a lot of both their HVLP conversion guns and turbine set-ups . http://www.finishsystems.com/3Maccuspraysprayguns.html He should be able to tell you what you need specifically for what you are doing. Just playing around with cap/needle combos is just going to get you more lost with your current gun.

SMALL TIP WITH SINGLE MATERIAL HOLE IN CENTER, DIRECTLY UNDER ALUMINUM ATOMIZER
I’m guessing this tip is what would be comparable to the .7 / 1.0 / 1.3 mentioned above. But my tip just has the number “29”. What unit of measurement is this and how does it correlate to the “1.3” recommended for clear coat, IF that is even recommended, given my setup with an HVLP turbine? Turbine cap/needle sizes usually bear no relationship to the "normal" compressed air gun HVLP units. Again it would be best to hook up with a dealer/jobber to help you sort that out.

OTHER FACTORS – PLEASE TELL ME THE IMPORTANCE OF THEM:

MEDALION TEK ELITE CLEAR COAT
This is the clear I currently use. The clear is “Medium” and the activator is “Medium”. Any issues? Depending on surface / ambient temp, I use either a medallion “Rapid Cure”, or Nu-Evo Reducer, Fast / Medium / Slow. I usually put anywhere from 5 to 10 percent reducer in to try to achieve a better smooth clear, but still have a noticeable orange peal difference when compared to a factory panel. I have also previously used Nu-Evo clear coat, but still get the same orange peel results… again making me think I’ve narrowed it down more specifically to my gun setup / atomization. Both are decently quality clear coats as far as I know, but I still get orange peel. You will find that with turbine spray finishing everything in the way of speeds/reducers/thinners must be SLOW. That heated air source is great for eliminating moisture but again lethal to those solvents/tail solvent that are needed for good flowout.

I shoot clear regardless of ambient temperature, surface temp, or air hose temp. I live in southern California and it can get into the mid 90’s, with my panel / bumper being 120-140, and I’ll still shoot it. Again, there go all of your good solvents that allow for flat level coating. It's shocking that your not getting a sandy grainy finish. I don’t know how much this plays into orange peel, but if it’s too hot, I use a slow reducer. Honestly, it seems to be acceptable (please correct me if I’m way off, here…), and I have always had the same level of orange peel regardless of surface or ambient temperature. If I shoot clear when it’s 60 degrees and cloudy, I get the same results as when the surface temp is 120 / 130 degrees in direct sunlight. And that's not exactly true either...plastics and metals can maintain higher temp.s for quite awhile even if ambient temp.s have fallen. Again we come back to just how hot your air supply is as well. This really makes me want to focus on gun setup and eliminate that as much as possible.

I believe I’ve mentioned everything related to getting orange peel. If you need any further explanation of my setup, please ask. I really want to make my clear coat as smooth as possible. So if that’s not attainable with a turbine hvlp, please let me know. Any and all opinions and recommendations are sincerely welcomed. I want to get to the bottom of this and produce quality results without sanding and buffing every job. All the research I’ve done, along with all the hands-on trial and error really makes me believe I need to change my gun setup. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again for your help!

Okay, so you are a mobile operation and I know a few of these guys around me as i am the furniture equivalent of what you do. Are you part of a chain/franchise? Did a company set you up or was this your own venture? It might help to know a little bit more about your background/experience with this......

Thanks for the reply! So there's no doubt that you have more knowledge on this than I do, but I have a few questions related to your responses:

It can literally boil out all of the proper tail solvents that allow for the elimination of orange peel when using a turbine.

I could understand that to be the case if the heat was in direct contact with the material for prolonged periods of time, but we really aren't talking about a lot of warm air contact. The clear coat doesn't even touch the warm air until it leaves the tip of the gun, and anything outside the tip is already in the regular air temperature. Yes, it's atomized by the warm air, but very briefly. Are we sure it really has that much of an impact on it?

How do you know this unit has that pressure? It would require a minimum of a 5 stage turbine to produce that kind of pressure at the gun tip and the largest turbine they make currently is a 4 stage producing 7 psi at the tip.

The turbine has the P.S.I. labeled on its body. It says 9.5 P.S.I. Also, a quick search reveals not only 5 stage turbines, but even a 6 stage turbine producing 11.5 P.S.I. Am I just not understanding what I'm looking at?

You can make your own simple portable external cooler for any turbine by simply buying spa hose(connect to your hose with simple garden hose fittings) at Home Depot and coiling it around in a 5 gallon bucket toward the outside leaving the center open, then just dump ice or ice packs in the center.

I appreciate the ingenuity, but I'd definitely prefer a permanent solution.

Accuspray guns with cup/under siphon style guns are usually set up for wood finishing. If you want proper flowout with today's high solids clears you should be using a gravity gun probably with a pressure assist tube to the lid on the top mounted cup. This is the way you get turbine guns to handle the higher solids clears and reduce orange peel.

I don't know enough about the impact this would have. It sounds like it would assist with the flow of the material through the gun, but that doesn't seem to be an issue with the guns I use. When shooting clear coat, there's enough pressure in those cups to flood the material onto the panel just with the tap of the trigger. Wouldn't atomization be more important than a pressurized gravity fed? What am I not understanding about this? Can you please clarify how a gravity fed gun would assist with reducing orange peel if I'm still using a turbine? Part of my lack of understanding is exactly what "high solids" means. It seems as though you linked "high solids" with being detrimental to use along with a bottom feed cup system. Can you clarify this portion a little more please?

I think you need to back the truck up here and start with getting the gravity gun.

I was able to read your responses this morning (thanks again!) but didn't have a chance to reply. So during the day I did some searching around and spoke with some other paint friends as well. The DeVilbiss Tekna Prolite was recommended. I am thinking about setting up a compressor system with filters, etc. solely for my clear coat. Do you recommend this gun? I use the bottom feed cup guns for all my primer and base, and haven't had any problems that I'm aware of. Should I add this system instead of trying to figure out how to make a turbine system give me a smooth clear coat? I guess, simply put, has ANYONE learned how to achieve a smooth quality clear coat using a turbine setup? And even if I switch over to a compressor setup with this gun, will I still need to be wet sanding and buffing the jobs? Or would the new setup give me a good quality final product without having to come back and wet sand / buff?

And that's not exactly true either...plastics and metals can maintain higher temp.s for quite awhile even if ambient temp.s have fallen. Again we come back to just how hot your air supply is as well.

True, but I use an infrared temperature gauge to check panel temperatures.... not so much to wait until it's "70 degrees" but more so that I can keep a mental track of how the jobs turn out when the panel and ambient temperatures are what they are.

And yep, mobile / franchise. Although I did receive training to some extent, I don't necessarily use all the techniques that were shown to me. This is one of those things. The clear coat perfection is something I'm trying to get to the bottom of for myself personally. I want my work to look great... not just "passable" or "hey, they didn't say anything... so it's good". I really care about my work and want to know that when I leave a job, I'm personally very happy with it. Others have basically said "you can only get it to look so good, given the surrounding elements and the fact that you are mobile and not in a controlled environment. A little orange peel is totally acceptable". Well, I don't like that answer. I want to make my clear coat as smooth as possible, and I have a very, VERY strong feeling that I will be able get 80 percent closer to what I want, but that I'm just missing, or not thoroughly understanding, certain techniques / temperatures / variables, etc. that are leaving my jobs a little orange peely. If it's possible to attain a very smooth clear coat with my current setup, I'd absolutely love it. But at the same time, if the turbine setup is solely responsible for leaving my jobs orange peely, and no one has a solution, then I'm willing to change/add to my setup just so that I can make the clear coat look great. I want it to be as close to a factory job as possible without sanding or buffing. Is this reasonable? Keep in mind I'm not talking about a "show car", but a regular customer being very happy with my jobs. So again, any help in this area is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks again for your answers / responses...

And if anyone else wants to throw in their two cents, please do!

Thanks guys!

Don't really know where to start here....you do not understand the physical characteristics of the tool and materials you are using..... Modern automotive clears are designed to be shot out of compressed air guns (HVLP, LVLP, RP, type doesn't matter). These guns work by releasing a REFRIGERATED compressed gas which quickly expands in the atmosphere while grabbing the fluid supply as it come out of the tip. This somewhat explosive process breaks up the clear into droplets as the gas expands now reaching near ambient temp.s as it approaches the surface of what you are painting. These clears were never designed for "warm air" gun systems like ours. That brief exposure to our warm air ( and yes, an infra-red monitor can show 130 degrees F + at our gun tips) starts driving out important solvents before our spray even reaches that surface. If they don't make it to the surface....orange peel. This is why most turbine gun makers will tell you to fiddle with reducers and retarders more than you would with regular gun systems. Can a turbine system lay down a glass smooth clear like the other guns???? Well, of course....will that happen right out of the can.....no way. I spray a 46% solids acid catalyzed clear furniture coating on woods, metals, plastics, and fiberglass all the time with little to no cutting or buffing. What it takes to get me there is running out of pressurized 5 gallon pots with a literal cocktail of additives that replaces what I feel is being lost in the spray process. I can build that coating up to 20 mils thick if needed and lay down a consistent 12 inch pattern all day long.

Okay, so you've got 9.5 if it says so.... if you got your system through your franchise it could have been a special order on a turbine system they felt worked best for these mobile applications. And, yes, current turbine technology actually goes up to 8 and 9 stage units now using special turbine wheels ( kevlar, carbon fiber, delrin, etc.)that do not generate heat. I just saw a demo of a commercial 8 stage unit spraying hybridized water based polyester last week laying down a 24 inch pattern for the inside of large steel buildings. Stuff laid down like glass with little overspray.

Okay back at this, the gravity gun thing. Back in the good ole' days all of our guns were pretty much cup under siphon/pressure feed guns. Worked great with lacquers, regular build lacquer primers and such which weren't very high in solids. Heck, even our furniture grade lacquers were just 18 to 22% solids (solids tech. is easy, yank out all the stuff that evaporated when you shoot and the rest is "solids" which is what ends up on the car when dry). Then modded lacquers, enamels, and high build primers came along. Higher solids clear urethanes became the "go to" clear coating building more surface clear with fewer coats. Bigger gun tips helped but not enough. Put the cup on top of the gun letting gravity help feed that fluid in and poof! a gun that can shoot consistently right down to the last drop. This is further a factor in turbine guns because with a cup under pressure feed we are not pulling very much pressure through that little tube that splits off our main air supply to the gun. The turbine guns actually need more fluid faster to spread out into that high volume of CFM these guns put out.

Will you achieve perfection with your current system? Don't know, it is more about experimentation, trying different clears, etc. And while we are on the subject of perfection.... why? Aren't you just trying to match factory orange peel? I have yet to see anything (well, there was this Aston Martin that I later found out a paint detailer color sanded for like 3 days.... flat, flat, flat) that approaches flat from a factory. Should you change to a compressed air system for that ultimate clear coating? Even the best of Sata, Iwata, whatever you read about on these forums is always going to be "improved" in depth of image, clarity by a good cut and buff. There are even a lot of guys on here that will tell you right up front....I shoot with a cheap gun, I'm not real good with laying down clear, etc., however the cut and buff evens that playing field when all is said and done. Again you seem to be on the path to "unobtanium" with a straight "off the gun" coating while the rest of us are chasing, hey, I need to make my orange peel look more like this factory coating......

Awesome Darrel, thanks for the really great information!

I also switched over to a slow activator today which turned out a better clear. As you also recommended, switching actual clears may help. I have been using Medallion Tek Elite. One of my friends used that for 10 years, but has since switched over to NuEvo Premium Clear NE2100 with a slow activator and is having even better results than Medallion. He DID mention that he was using the cup guns (same as what I use) and the NuEvo looked better than Medallion.... but then he also went to a compressor / gravity setup and is smoother than ever. I'll probably give NuEvo a shot after I'm out of Medallion. If it doesn't get as smooth as I need, I'll probably switch over to gravity / compressor as well, at least for my clears...

I guess the reason I'm so focused on achieving a smooth clear is because of the abundance of medium to high end cars in this area. The clear I shot today was actually just a 2017 Chevy Volt, and even that was an exceptionally smooth factory finish. I pretty much didn't see any orange peel at all. Maybe it's just this area, but I've been noticing a lot of cars with smoother finishes on them these days.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help. I'll definitely be playing around with clears a little more.

Okay, good, if you went to something slower and it made a visible difference that means that more experimentation with that clear or switching to other clears should get you to where you want. Sometimes you can call the company that makes your clear and explain to them about your set-up and they can provide longer tail solvents additives through a local paint jobber. We used to get a heavy duty high solids bar top coating year ago that was a great high build product. Problem was, it would quit flowing and leave us with orange peel every time. I was put in contact with the chemist that designed the stuff and he worked out what he called a "flash off control solvent" for us. Only about an ounce per quart was needed and that coating leveled absolutely flat but still remained dust free after shooting which was perfect for our production needs.

Just to address that smoother coatings thing.... I think the dealers with higher end cars are becoming more "sensitive" to the criticism that they get about "not so premium" paint on premium cars. I know for a fact, that at least one of our local dealers has a paint detail/cut & buff guy that's been doing prep. on the more expensive stuff when it comes in. I've seen him on the lot with his equipment doing what I am assuming is a mild color sand on entire cars and then rotary buff. Several of the local touch-up and paint detail guys offer this service as well.

Don't give up on your turbine just yet.....it's cheap to experiment with materials but you can drop a lot of cash on setting up a complete new system that might end up being only marginally better or that still requires a decent cut/buff.

Using inspiration from this site, I found a 6-stage motor and wired it up myself so it has a full variable air pressure knob, a 4-6 stage switch. It shoots like a dream with a 7700 Atomizer. It is functionally a Capspray 115 but cost wayyyyy less.

I'm in the middle of shooting an all over and it does a great job but you need to experiment for sure. I notice most of the threads are neglecting to mention that you can also add retarder to your clear, in addition to reducers. The retarder slows down the catalytic reaction time and lets the product flow a little longer.

I haven't shot since the 80's so have been playing around with the base/clear. I'm using - Deltron 2000 DBC with an aftermarket universal clear. The big things that help with the orangepeel is -

Always use slow chemicals - I use only the TDS recommended amounts of activator and retarder. Keep that sucker wet and flowable for as long as possible while sticking to the TDS.

If you're blowing warm air, you need a cooler of some sort. This is surely the biggest problem people are having with shooting car paint. I have a 15-foot section of hose coiled into a 5-gallon bucket of cold tap water (70 deg.). This does an amazing job of regulating the air temperature. After spraying for 30 minutes, my air temp at the gun is typically 72-74 deg. If you use this idea, it will help greatly if you learn to use the trigger at the start/finish of each pass so the air has a brief moment to dwell in the coiled hose for max. cooling.

If you still have orangepeel, do a practice piece and spray closer to the panel (like 4-inches) and adjust your travel speed.

Make sure your gun is adjusted well - shoot on the wall with a horizontal fan and watch for sags.

Don't over reduce your paint unless it's the last resort. There's a lot of variables you can try.

Mix clear in small batches because the instant the activators start kicking in, the consistency changes and that might be only 10-15 minutes. Sure, the pot life is 2-3 hours but it sprays best as soon as you cap the cup.

One other thing - these companies that advertise turbine pressures like 9.5psi are playing with your head. The 9.5 pressure is taken off the end of the motor and is advertised as "sealed pressure". This is marketing, as it isn't a pressure you'll ever use once you add a hose/gun with their air restrictions. I hooked my 7700 up directly to the motor exhaust and get a full 6psi at the air fitting for the pressure pot. I'm using a 50-foot hose and get right around 5 psi inside the gun but with the right chemicals and good spray technique, it'll shoot like glass when I'm lucky. lol

Hope that helps someone!

Hey dude, how are you measuring the pressure of your turbine?