Hi guys, im a lurker that decided to toss out a couple of questions.

I'm the owner/operator of a small business that takes classics and muscle cars only. I'm not a collision/insurance shop.

I'm in my first year of operation as a full time business after decades of sidelining with this sort of work.

Everything I do comes down to bare metal, most everything gets either full panel, partial panel replacement and some basic patching and metalwork followed by my filler work, 2k epoxy prime then I surface prime for hand blocking. I've used various polyester and or urethane surfacing primers. I'm trying to get away from the polyester and leaning harder on urethane surfacers.

My paint jobs are always overalls, typically base/clear that gets wet sanded and buffed.

I'm turning out decent work, nice stuff. But I'm kind of killing myself getting it done.

I haven't found the perfect surfacing primer for my needs yet. I've found some that sand great but are very difficult to apply and I've found some that go on easy but they clog paper like crazy when blocking. I need a product that I can apply fairly fast that also dry blocks nicely to 400.



Specifically right now, I'm looking for input from other shops as to what surfacing primers you have come to like the best? In 2k urethanes I currently use 2 different brands. One brand I love for blocking, it sands so nice, doesn't gum up and clog paper, really great sanding stuff. But it is horrible to apply. I shoot it with a 2.2 fluid tip and I struggle to get it on, I could just as well put it on with a roller. The other one I use is a dream to spray, even with a 1.8 tip, no problem. But it doesn't sand as nice, it clogs my paper too fast. Neither of these are **********, anybody using their urethane surfacing primers regularly? How do you like it? Any other suggestions? Also, sandpaper. I have been using indassa for my whole range from 36 all the way up to 2500. I'm ready to toss everything I have above 320 into the trash. I'm losing faith in it for finishing. I dry block by hand with 400 and it seems like the scratches are equal to 220 grit.

I wet sand to 2500, actually I go straight to 2500 to be safe, I'm super careful with cleaning and pressure, keeping fresh paper on etc. When its time to compound I start with wool pad and a cutting compound such as wizards turbo cut or meguiars 100. I can shine up my clear pretty quick but it takes me for ever to get to the bottom of sanding scratches. I'm turning out nice work but I'm killing myself getting it done. I'm blaming the slowness of my final finishing process on my cheap paper right now. Looking to make some changes before I finish my next project but not sure how far to take my changes.

For leveling my clear prior to buffing,
I have been looking at the newer trizact systems and processes, it looks great but I just cant get past the price. Am I a fool for still messing with wet paper, messy wool pads and compounding products?

I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules with these questions, if the answers don't belong out here in the open I'd be just as happy with a PM. Thanks a bunch!

Dave

Lesonal 2k100 is the best bang for the buck. $120 a kit. No shrinkage, sprays great, and sands just as well. ********** 2k primer has a lot of solvents. You have to wait 3-4 minutes of flash time between coats or it will shrink back so tight you will see scratches under the finish product. Thats with a block and reprime. In the summer you need a retarder to go with it so it doesn't get to thick in your cup. I have spoke with ********** after having this problem and they verified what I just wrote. So we went back with lesonal it was only $10 more per kit. You get what you pay for in this industry. Norton and sun might make good paper for the price. If your doing restoration work and want to keep the doors open, quality materials are your only option. Restorations are meant to be done for two types of cars. A driver and a show car. Both of these deserve quality materials and labor. If your doing a full blown restoration for a driver and not starting at 10k your losing your ****. Just my opinion. But to charge 10k plus your work has to be top notch and last the life of the vehicle.

Thank you very much for that feedback.

I have been using some house brand primers from a local jobber, this is the product that I said sprayed well but was not so nice for sanding.

The one I liked for sanding was a product by kirker called perfect prime. It builds like crazy but it is very heavy, it seems inconsistent in it's reaction time, too often it starts to kick in the cup and I can't shoot it even with a gravity fed 2.2 fluid tip.

I'm actually pretty tired of the entire kirker line, the last clear I tried from them was an EC350 and it was absolutely miserable stuff to work with. I think i could make better "clear" out of gasoline and pine sap, it was horrible stuff.

I agree 100% with your business advice, absolutely 100%.

This is why I'm here with these questions.

I am grateful for your advice.

I have several in my shop right now but the one that is likely closest to refinish stages is a 72 camaro.

I will order a kit of Lesonal 2k100 for it, I am anxious for a primer change.

I am assuming they also have a 2k epoxy to put down under this? Or is it a DTM product?

I am also switching my body fillers. I will stick with the metal 2 metal I have been using for repair seams and as replacement for old lead seams. but I think I will experiment with a rage gold product for my polyester, I feel there are also some gains to be made over the product I am currently using. (this is probably true for my whole product line I think)

I think that my indasa and or mirka papers may be fine for taking these projects to bare metal and for initial filler and primer leveling through my first session of primer surfacing. (probably up to 180-220) But I would like to switch to a different brand of paper for everything above 220, including my finishing paper.

I am familiar with Norton, I will look into Sun. You did not mention 3M, any particular reason?

For my top coats I have used some nason base most recently and also their select clear.

I know these are not exactly premium products. but I don't think they are bad products either.

My closest top coat jobber is the axalta line of products.

Do you feel it would be best for me to slide up the product scale to chroma and or standox?

Again, thank you very much for the input.

Dave

HeavyCollision085 wrote:Lesonal 2k100 is the best bang for the buck. $120 a kit.

In searching for it I come up with u-tech 2k100? is that right?

It looks like both u-tech and lesonal are Akzo products.

But I also see 2k urethane surfacers in the lesonal line, they are considerably more $ per kit. Which I am fine with if they help me and are better for the customer's cars.

Yes it is utech 2k100. Ever coat z-grip is the best bang for the buck. Its a non clog lightweight filler. Spreads and fills nice, along with sanding easily. Rage gold is a great product but pricey vs the z-grip. I didn't recommend 3m because of the price I look at quality vs price. The sand paper I recommended is affordable quality to bump up profits. As far as epoxy goes ********** does make a good epoxy primer that comes in 4 different colors. The clear I use is ********** 2.1 VOC. Part # 2100-1. I guarantee my workmanship for the life of the vehicle that you own it. The materials I use are held at the same standard and these companies will stand behind there products. Spraying ********** clear for five years and have yet to have any issues. Quality work at an affordable price has to start with quality products at an affordable price. Mix in quality workmanship and a butt kissing and polite attitude and your in business for years to come. Just words I live by. Good luck, happy to help, and i hope for your success. Any questions you have just ask and I'm more than happy to give you my opinion.

Thanks very much, is that ********** 2100-1 a good overall clear? I'm always shooting a whole car.

Well, I guess I shoot doors, hood trunk lid, truck boxes and tailgates seperate from bodies, but still Its an overall clear that I usually want. And I wet sand buff most of my exterior panels. Does it cut and buff well? Do you wet sand and buff it fairly green or wait to avoid die back?

Thanks again, I've been researching the Norton line of papers, looks like they have everything I use and some new stuff for me to try.

Dave, I sell these products but I also use them. For primer check out the Tamco 2K build primers. My son has been using the HC-2100 clear for a year now and the cars done a year ago still look like they were just rolled out of the shop. Just met with one customer yesterday he is having another car painted this year.

http://www.autobody101.com/store/tamco/

Lot's of threads here on the Tamco primer - it's a winner, nobody looks back after using it.

One recent example: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24244

Thanks Chris, do you use epoxy under the tamco primer?

So far have not had any need to, no.