Why is single stage cheaper than bc/cc?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:12 pm
Just wondering why this is. Every paint vendor I've seen charges about half as much for a gallon/quart of single stage vs the same color in basecoat.

To my newbie eye, wouldn't single stage cost more, since it comes with clearcoat already mixed in? With the basecoat you spray it, then have to go through the expense of putting clear coat over it. I'm sure there's a good reason for this, just don't know what it would be.



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:30 pm
could be a lot of things, material cost, the higher demand, advances in technology for some. base coat is way superior to s/s for todays auto repair. it always mind boggled me as to why there was so much difference in cost just with colors. last summer I did a repaint of a Harley rear fender color was no longer available form HD. PPG made the color a metallic light blue it was 250.00 for a pint, some standard blues were less than 100.00. thanks to my jobber I was able to get it much cheaper.

Jay D.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:10 pm
Base coat is no way stronger than single stage, try not clearing over base and
see how long it lasts.
Single stage urethane is the same product as clear coat, they're both urethane.
At least with single stage urethane if you get a chip in it you don't
have to worry about future peeling like you do with base coat.
Base coat is like a sponge and once exposed will keep peeling
the clear on top of it.
SS urethane is the strongest finish you can use,
I used SS urethane on my boat and trailer for just that reason.
It's held up far better than base coat/clearcoat ever did.
I use base/clear far all my collision repairs, but only because it's easier
to work with. Durability of either one is long enough to not be a factor
either way for my car work.
JC.

(It's not custom painting-it's custom sanding)



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:53 pm
badsix wrote:could be a lot of things, material cost, the higher demand, advances in technology for some. base coat is way superior to s/s for todays auto repair. it always mind boggled me as to why there was so much difference in cost just with colors. last summer I did a repaint of a Harley rear fender color was no longer available form HD. PPG made the color a metallic light blue it was 250.00 for a pint, some standard blues were less than 100.00. thanks to my jobber I was able to get it much cheaper.

Jay D.


$250 for a pint??? Man, what is in that stuff, gold dust and bitcoin?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:33 pm
larryq wrote:
badsix wrote:could be a lot of things, material cost, the higher demand, advances in technology for some. base coat is way superior to s/s for todays auto repair. it always mind boggled me as to why there was so much difference in cost just with colors. last summer I did a repaint of a Harley rear fender color was no longer available form HD. PPG made the color a metallic light blue it was 250.00 for a pint, some standard blues were less than 100.00. thanks to my jobber I was able to get it much cheaper.

Jay D.


$250 for a pint??? Man, what is in that stuff, gold dust and bitcoin?


It's called supply and demand. They have the supply and they demand a price for it.
1968 Coronet R/T


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 pm
'68 Coronet R/T wrote:It's called supply and demand. They have the supply and they demand a price for it.


No doubt. But at that price I'd figure someone else, another jobber, could come up with a supply for $200 a pint, and so on down.



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:56 pm
the deal was a little strange. I bid the job not knowing the price yet for the paint and quoted labor plus cost of materials. I call my local Harley dealer with the color number and find out that that color was discontinued. I ask if any other dealer might have one on the shelf. so they ran it on there nation wide computer and found one pint somewhere back in New York when I called them the guy says yes we do have a pint it will be 80 some dollars I said great i'll take it. moments later he says its not there must have been sold and not taken off the computer. so now's when it starts to get ugly, I contact my local PPG jobber and that's when I find out its going to cost close to 250.00 a pint, and if I remember they couldn't mix it said they would have to get a special toner. I then when to my jobber to see if she could mix in Chroma Base or something but no deal. looking really hurt I said what can we do, she said let me make some calls. after about an hour she said she could get the main PPG distributor in Oregon to mix a pint for about 120.00. I said great thanked her for a great effort and picked up the paint the next day and all whet well.
Jay D.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:54 pm
Harley factory packs are about the same price. Harley does not release formulas for all their paints, so many times you'd have to purchase the factory pack to get the color. Limited use toners are not always on the bank at jobbers, so if they have to buy it, they'll charge you a lot bc they're not going to use it all more than likely and it will go bad as lut have a shorter shelf life.



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:01 pm
JCCLARK wrote:Base coat is no way stronger than single stage, try not clearing over base and
see how long it lasts.
Single stage urethane is the same product as clear coat, they're both urethane.
At least with single stage urethane if you get a chip in it you don't
have to worry about future peeling like you do with base coat.
Base coat is like a sponge and once exposed will keep peeling
the clear on top of it.
SS urethane is the strongest finish you can use,
I used SS urethane on my boat and trailer for just that reason.
It's held up far better than base coat/clearcoat ever did.
I use base/clear far all my collision repairs, but only because it's easier
to work with. Durability of either one is long enough to not be a factor
either way for my car work.



Old thread, but if this is the case why isn’t ss with clear coat on top not the best route?

I’m not doubting, but I’ve wondered this many times. I’ve also seen people mention that some of their best jobs were after a screwed up ss job that had to be sanded and cleared.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:29 pm
Billgluckman wrote:why isn’t ss with clear coat on top not the best route?


There are industrial finishes that are way tougher than 2K/SS or clear. There are also some clears that are much tougher than the ones we usually use in automotive refinishing.

The point about the bond between base and clear, and its propensity to allow moisture in if the clear is broken is a valid one but other than this, premium clears (which are also expensive) don't have the same issues, or at least not to the same degree. For example, if I do a job in premium products then I can give a lifetime warranty, excludes mechanical damage, of course. But if I use cheaper clears, or base from a different paint manufacturer then there is no warranty, other than the statutory one.

While clear over 2K does look good, giving a much deeper gloss, again it depends on the products you're using. I also have some concerns about the 2K to clear bond which, if the clear is done after the 2K has dried, relies on mechanical adhesion to a much greater degree. You could clear over the 2K wet-on-wet but that's asking for runs and peel, IMHO. Nice for a show car but not practical or economical for a daily driver.

In terms of everyday jobs and particularly in terms of the work and skill levels done by most members of this forum, BC/CC is the best option.

Edit: Just came back to this and realised that I didn't address your question about why it's cheaper.

Formulating clear is tricky, especially keeping it "water clear". So components are more expensive. Binder for 2k is not quite clear and I guess that the theory is that you could use 2K binder and hardener, but I haven't ever tried. Then, with BC/CC you have the cost of the base, which can be expensive, by itself.

On top of all that the paint companies know that clear is perceived as a premium product while 2K is not, being more likely to be used on trade vans, trucks and lower end cars. So they price accordingly.
Chris
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