Quoted for Two and a half days to cut and buff a half car?

Discuss anything after that final masking comes off.



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:59 pm
HI This is my first post and sorry for the length of it but I am in Australia and need to explain a few things before I can ask the question. I hope the terminology I use is familiar with the mostly US members here. I have asked this question here as I get very little joy when posting on my usual Aussie Mopar forum, - on any subject really, not just panel and paint.

I am getting price estimates for a respray on my 1970 Valiant (Dodge) ute. To make that easier to understand, it is the same vehicle and platform as your 67-69 Dodge Dart 4 door sedan but in a utility body (ie, a pickup). These are A body. It has previously been painted in 2-pack about 10 years ago, and to cut costs I want this good paint kept as a base for the new respray. (ie, not taken back to bare metal) .
Other important points to note is that the hood, tailgate, front section behind the grille, interior floorpan, underbody and tray body are not being painted, they are separate jobs (hood and tailgate will be satin black).

The guy who came and gave me an estimate for the job wants to use what he calls 'Direct gloss 2-Pack', to save costs. Meaning it is the colour and clear together and then hardener is added. Unlike the clear-over-base method which is what I am used to using.

His price estimate for the job was all itemized with hours and tasks etc. and it is all very fair and reasonable except for one component: He has written down a time of 20 hours or two and a half days to cut and polish the paint. Plus $100 for the materials (polish itself and wet/dry paper). At $50 per hour, that's $1100, while the rest of the hours and work including masking, all painting and prep time, rust repair and all materials comes to only $1600.

If anyone is familiar with this direct gloss 2K (i think most mainstream car manufacturers use this paint method), does this seem like a huge amount of time? I was led to believe that a good two-pack paint job is very good straight off the gun and should only take 3-4 hours to buff and polish for the average guy's car (not a show car, that is different). And don't forget it is not even a full car. Just two fenders, two doors a small half roof and the two pickup sides.

Another painter told me that unlike the clear-over-base system, where it is the clear coat that is being cut back, in this other system, the colour itself is being cut back, eating into the coats of colour.

I would appreciate some experienced painters' opinions on this estimate.

Thanks for reading !

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:36 pm
First thing you need to understand is that there are (basically) two systems used for quoting.

The old system is referred to as FTFM (funny times, funny money). It grew up out of insurers basing their assessments on the labour rate. So, the guy with the lowest labour rate got the job, regardless of how many hours he took to do it. This, obviously led to a ridiculous situation with people quoting labour rates below cost.

The industry then came up with a system where the actual, or real, times were agreed on to do any particular job and the labour rate used was the "shop" rate, based on actual costs. This system was then called RTRM (real times, real money). Many insurers and shops have now moved to this new system, but there are some who are still using the old way.

A labour rate of $50/hour is a joke. These days a good tradesman painter can pull $1500-2000 a week, after tax. Before tax this is close to $3000/week or $75/hour. Even an average painter can be looking at $35/hour. To that you need to add oncosts (workers compensation insurance (5%), superannuation(10%), long service provision, holiday provision, sick leave provision) and that's before you even start to add things like rent, electricity and other overheads.

Most of the insurers will agree to labour rates of between $80 and $95 per hour based on this system. My labour rate is currently $94/hour plus GST (10%), so $103.40/hour to the customer.

So, basically, the quote you have is based on FTFM. You can roughly halve the times to get actuals, but, of course the labour rate would have to go up to maintain the bottom line price.

What he's really saying is $1100 to do the cut and buff, which is 11 hours at $100/hour or 13.75 hours at $80/hour. For a really high quality finish I don't see that as unreasonable.

As for the paint, yes he's quoting you on 2K (or single stage as the Yanks call it). This is much quicker and easier than COB but leaves a total film thickness much less and can be subject to fading. There may be a reason why he's elected to do this - possibly paint thickness after the previous respray is already a bit high, or possibly he is just after a quick buck.

Unless the are reason to use the 2K system (for example, to maintain "period correct" for shows) the I'd be inclined to use COB. More work to paint but better result which, with quality materials, will last longer.
Chris

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:15 pm
:goodpost: :goodpost:
Now that is a thorough explanation and well written.
1968 Coronet R/T


ACTS 16:31



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:54 pm
To NFT5, many thanks for taking the time and effort to write that reply. I appreciate it and you have helped in a small way to restore my faith in forums. Some really great history there which I was not aware of and although much of what you have written in relation to my situation is assumptive, however it is still very relevant in general terms. Also I see you are in Aust - really great, as you understand the prices to a T.

I am in Perth and we have always been at least 10 years behind the 'times' compared to the Eastern states. The fellow who quoted me is not in your line of thinking as a shop professional. This guy is only about 22-23 and only about 4 years out of his apprenticeship. He works from home in a semi rural area with one other mate, in a converted shed as a spray booth, exhaust fans and sealed up etc. I hear you groan a little and of course nowhere near as good as a $200,000 industrial booth, but that is why he can charge $50 an hour. Also this is cash; he probably doesn't have most of those expenses you mention. So you can see why it is this rate. That's still good money though for a young fellow, upwards of $80,000 a year, working 5 normal days.

Anyway, you are right about the 2K. I would prefer COB but I think he chose that to keep time, and therefore costs down. Because I told him it was a driver car on a budget and not going to be a back to bare metal / higher cost job. But I still need to ask him how many coats he plans to lay down. With that much cutting and buffing, I want more than 2 coats. For the amount of panel area I mentioned previously, he reckoned 3 litres would be adequate. I am hoping this will get me three coats plus a thinned down gloss coat. But I think he might not want to do that.

I was also a little suspicious that he was using this inordinate amount of polishing time to act as a buffer in case his other quoted hours went over. They are very low I think, 3 hours to prep the engine bay, 8 hours to prep the whole car inside and out, 3 hours masking etc. But on questioning him about the polishing time, he said that because he doesn't have a professional spray booth, a little more dirt gets into the paint and he needs the extra time to cut it out. Fair enough, but it is 2k and therefore thinning out the colour. He said we can negotiate on that point anyway.

I still want to see some of his work before I commit. Another plus point is that he is literally just around the corner from my house. And I feel he is an honest fellow, a rare thing in Perth in the smash repair game. Lots of crooks over here. I believe him when he says the cost will not be more than his quoted price.

Thanks again for your reply !!!

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