Straight 57 Nomad

Show off your work! Anything from final results to full start-to-finish project journals.



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:31 pm
You didn't offend me,I have thick skin,but your condescending attitude turns off many people.IMHO you would be better off putting on 3-4 coats of a polyusurfacer aftter your epoxy and blocking that.For the record I have seen some perfect cars...Good day Fred :wink:



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:36 am
After giving consideration to the duly noted comments by Jason M, I thought it only appropriate to mention them publicly since they were pointed out publicly and will remain as part of this thread.
Jayson m wrote:Why are you doing bodywork with primer,and epoxy at that :shocked: I just don't see the point of using primer as a substitute for a little bodyfiller,you are asking way too much from an epoxy,a sprayable polyester would have been more appropriate.

My intention when starting this project was to use a high build urethane primer, but the folks at ********** convinced me to try epoxy instead and its working good so far. That door required two more sessions of priming with two coats the first time and three coats the second time, although I did use a razor blade to put filler in the divots. Other than the divots, it just didn't need much surfacing.

In addition to **********, I found that House of Color also likes the epoxy..



As stated in the link below
GENERAL INFORMATION
KP2CF is a hi-solids, activated, Chromate Free Epoxy Sandable Primer. KP2CF primer may be applied to the existing OEM finish, bare steel, aluminum, fiberglass, and galvanized surfaces. Its tenacious adhesion, hi-build, excellent durability, water and corrosion resistance, and ease of sanding make it a logical choice for the basis of a long lasting paint job. KP2CF Epoxy Primer:

• resists cracking for years and years

• cures for sanding and finishing in 12-24 hours at 70°F.

• prevents plastic filler staining or bleed through

will not stain, shrink, or swell from sand scratches
KP2CF Epoxy Primer is the first step to a great long lasting custom finish

• Direct to metal, plastics, and fiberglass.

Extreme flexibility that allows the finish to expand and contract when the metal is heated or cooled, and will not crack even when seriously dented.
Tenacious adhesion that resists chipping from rock bruising or door dings.
• Fills up to 24 P grit scratches and offers outstanding sandability.
• Complete blockage of body filler bleed-through at 2 mils of film build.
http://www.houseofkolor.com/PDF/TechDat ... /KP2CF.pdf

Corlar is of course a marine epoxy primer but epoxy none the less and here is what Dupont says.

As stated in the link below
Recommended Uses
DuPont™ Corlar


® 18515S™ High-Build Epoxy Primer is recommended for use above the waterline as a sanding surfacer over properly sanded gelcoat, faired and/or primed substrates. It is compatible with most epoxy primers and polyurethane topcoats with proper surface preparation

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/vis ... Finishes_E.
chevman wrote:Just something I want to do.
And at this point in life I'm retired and don't need to make a living at this, and don't need to rush.


Jayson m wrote:To me its about doing it properly,not making a living........
my 2 cents....


My point was that I'm retired and have all the time needed to make sure the epoxy is ready to move on. Manufacturers say to wait 2 or 3 days before sanding, but the users say that a week is a safer bet.
Jayson m wrote:To me that door looks pretty rough,maybe you should have picked and filed.....but hey what do I know :pcorn:



As I already stated, Kent White is highest on my list of respected metal workers, and on his videos he doesn't recommend using the pick hammer. And another well respected metal worker is Wray Schelin, and this what he has to say about pick hammers.


As stated in the link below
Removing Dents
by Wray Schelin
"In my opinion a pick hammer has

many drawbacks: one- you need room to be able to swing it; and generally
the hammer itself might be 6" or more across the head. Two- it is very easy
to over hit with a pick hammer and cause irrepairable damage. Three- more
likely than not you will not be able to strike the low spot, instead you
will hit the high spot worsening the problem. The safest bet is to retire
your pick hammer. This verdict also applies to the bulls-eye gimmick tools
which use a C shaped frame to guide you to the elusive low spot. If you go
down the bulls-eye road you will find your garage populated with many
expensive sizes and versions abslolutely needed to remove all those pesky
dents and dings. You will allways be one bulls-eye tool short."

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xk-lovers/lib ... dents.html


Fay Butler is another well respected metal worker who sells tools, and in his description of hammers he has this to say.




Fay Butler Fab/Metal Shaping

"Notice there is not a pick hammer here. I do not ever recommend using one. A small pointed contact gives you a small punch like impression into the metal, leaving a rough finish. If you need to use a pick hammer in those rare instances, then use one of the chisel ends slightly caulked to the side so you are only using the very end. Not a recommended technique but for those of you that think you need a pick hammer, well that should satisfy your needs and help to wean you off of the pick".

http://www.faybutler.com/bodyhammer.htm


Actually that door was my first attempt at pulling dents with the stud welder, and that is why the divots from removing the pins are so deep, I attach the pins less firmly now so they hardly leave a divot.


Jayson m wrote:You don't use the file to take off metal only to find your highs and lows,if you have to file it that thin you are doing it wrong.


While its true that the instructor you have to learn under can make a difference in the quality of your work, back in 1974 there wasn't as many choices in metal finishing instructors as there seems to be today, which is the reason I drove cross country for one. Although there may have been schools that specialize in a metal working class but I wasn't aware of any.



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:59 am
Hey Rock
Whats up with the Chev Lately? seen you have some Epoxy on it NICE!!!!! should be looking nice about now any updates?

Also when did u change your user name?

Jayson M
I don't get a couple of your posts?
Both of you are highly respected members of our community both of you have skills others would die for.
One does restoration triple 999 the other does Quality hi volume production body shop.

Therese always going to be disagreements between technicians, But to say Chevyman/Rock has a condescending attitude I would have to strongly disagree. He has always been nice and helpful and NEVER condescending to any one that I have ever read, nor have you??? so to read all this is a bit of a shock really.

There are two or three Jayson's (initial) on the board now, its hard to keep up with who is who, one is just started learning then the other that's a wealth of good information and that would be you sir.
Then to make matters worse I think I seen another new Post from another new Jason (Initial) need to stop that format for new users names I think?

I don't know were I'm going with this post other to say I don't wanna see this thread destroyed or drug down by a disagreement on how to do things or use of materials But let me say this.

"There are always more than one way to do things the right way"
Unless you know for a fact that a particular method or process is going to cause severe rust or failure of a particular step in the process which would be catastrophic to the project perhaps we should keep are comments to ourselves?
Especially when viewing a Restorers work and use of products as compared to what and how a person who works in a production body shop would do something.

The restorer looks at things differently than a person in the Production world would view things, whether its the metal itself or the products he uses and how he chooses to use them. Doesn't make either one of them wrong, BUT it does give both a UNIQUE AND different perspective on how things should be done and how products should be used.
Dennis B.
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:10 pm
Doright I have done both restos and collision work but the fact remains its either done right or its not .Fred just likes to copy and paste quotes so he can make himself look right even though he has no real world experience to back it up,he has done this numerous times on other sites.He just wants to prove me wrong :happy: and I'm ok with that and find it flattering that he values my opinion :shocked:

The reason you have divots from your unispot nails is you held the trigger too long,less than a half second is all you need and a gentle twist and the stud is gone with no divots.Really all you had to do is touch it up with another stud,trim it and grind it flush or touch it up with a welder(tig,mig,torch whatever)


Pick and file can be done with a pry bar, pick ,marlan spike and a spoon,corner of a dolly or whatever as long as you don't distort the metal with small high spots.....(like his door) its not rocket science.For the record my hammer of choice for 90% of metal work is a proto 1427 not a pick hammer :goodjob:

Image


You don't have to use a file either a black sharpie or even guide coat or machine shop blueing and a large block with sand paper on it can be used to show progress to achieve the same results with out removing metal and making a hole :shocked:

You can post and quote all you want about epoxy but it will not change my mind about how you are using it.It has its place for , pretreatment before highbuild or sandblasted metal or painting bare metal parts wet on wet.

In the end I think its just a disagreement on technique and some basic things and maybe a personality conflict and I no longer want to be part of this thread.



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:03 pm
Thanks for your support Dennis, I truly appreciate it.


Jay, I disagreed with you on one other forum -- one time, and what I quoted and posted at that time, was the technical data sheets for the products in question. I also tried to defend you on that same forum. The only reason that I disagreed with you then or now, is because you posted something about my technique being wrong,

I don't have experience to draw from, so I post my source or something to show my technique is acceptable, not necessarily that yours is not acceptable.

I think you give good advice and I have no reason to challenge you on it, in fact, quite often I learn from it. Ron Covell uses pick hammers and I'm sure there are others or they wouldn't make so many of them. Its just not a technique that I want to use, although prying is very helpful at times for removing dents.

I agree, this has gone on long enough.
Last edited by chevman on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:53 pm
Fred nobody cares about this right or wrong thing, I can admit when I'm wrong but I still stand by my opinion about what you are doing wrong to that car on a few levels.You can drop the pick hammer thing as I never said I use a pick hammer all the time,hardly ever actually and I listed other ways .I can appreciate the time and effort you have put into it your project.If I made a mistake about a certain product I'm glad you had the time to research it and correct me :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:02 am
quote doright: But to say Chevyman/Rock has a condescending attitude I would have to strongly disagree. He has always been nice and helpful and NEVER condescending to any one that I have ever read, nor have you??? so to read all this is a bit of a shock really. Unquote:

I don't know that Jay has ever mis-spoke his mind or ever been outta line here. Heaven knows that he needs no defense whatsoever. I have found Fred condescending and patronizing more than once or twice. An experienced professional called the rock/chevy as respectfully as he could on more than one issue here. I do agree with ya Donnie on there's more than one way to do things right. Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree on an issue or two concerning these matters. I am done here. Please don't PM me anymore at this point Fred.
:whoops:
Never argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:11 pm
I say it is time to agree to disagree and be done with it. No sense rallying support or drawing up battle lines since it is a matter of personal opinion and will never be settled that way.
This is Fred's thread, dealing with his project, so allow him to describe and demonstrate how he is doing it. Alternate ways and ideas have been and can be submitted and they will be assessed by those reading the thread. What we need to avoid is the perception of personal attacks or on going feuds that need to be settled in person and not on this forum.
Those with differing ideas (that are within the realm of accepted practices in auto body work) can post up their personal projects showing others their preferred methods. That way people can learn the alternate ways and choose which will work best for them.
1968 Coronet R/T


ACTS 16:31

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:17 pm
Nice work I really enjoyed going through your thread.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:37 am
OH GOODY!
Look what the Cat dragged up!

I would LOVE to see an update on this one!!!!


You see a Good thread Never dies! :goodjob:
Dennis B.
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.
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