67 Corvette. GRP for the first time... potentially at home

Anything goes in the world of fiberglass and plastic



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:17 pm
Hi,

I've recently had several quotes for the respray on my 1967 327ci Corvette Stingray. The latest of which was £12,000-£14,000 + (VAT@20%), which equates to potentially OVER $22,000

The first guy that quoted was a painter friend whom had previously given my 76 Austin Mini a quick blow-over (he charged me £600 for that job and had it completed within 5 weeks and quality-wise, it was better than I had hoped for. I was very pleased with it.)

Here's a photo of it next to the Corvette:

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The paint job on the Mini ticked all three of the magical "Goldilocks" checkpoints:

1) It was finished within the time-frame that the painter predicted he'd complete it.
2) It was equal or better than the quality I was hoping for.
3) It was the correct price for the paint-finish achieved.

I've found over the years that in the UK in general, and Scotland in particular, it's easy to find a painter who can tick one of those boxes, occasionally you'll find a painter who might tick two of those boxes, but it's exceedingly difficult to find a painter who can nail all three.

Before agreeing to paint the Corvette, the guy who'd painted the Mini spent an hour looking at the car, then we agreed a price of between £3K to 4K depending on how the prep went, and I trailered the car over to his house. 4 months later he hadn't found the time to start the project, so I went and fetched the car. The guy is a professional painter who works full time but takes on home-jobs to make extra money. He's taken on too much home-work recently and the Vette was a big job. I could anticipate not getting the car back for another year, hence the decision to take the car back and find another solution (I don't hold it against him and we're still pals)

A little bit about my history... When I was younger I spent a year working in a boat builders. We made composite racing rowing boats using GRP, Carbon fibre and Kevlar (woven matting, but hand laid-up: this was just before pre-impregnated matting because the industry standard) My job was to take the freshly cured hulls out of the molds and prep them for paint. It was a steep learning curve.

This is one of the boats I worked on. These chaps set some new records in the commonwealth games in 2002 in something I spent several weeks working on. It was a great feeling sitting the the pub watching them win medals on the TV

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This was a long time ago, but since then, I've spent most of my free time messing about with old cars. Over the years I've prepped 9 cars for paint from bare metal to primer using the skills I'd picked up at the boat builders, and laid the topcoat down on two of them myself. I'm under no illusions as to how much work is involved in the prep-work and how important the quality of the prep-work is. I recently bought a 76 jaguar XJ6 and because the car needed so much metal work, after completing all the welding I needed to give it a full blow-over with the gun. The car is only ever going to be worth about £4K so it didn't warrant an expensive paint job, so I did it myself, in a weekend, for £200 worth of materials. It looks pretty awful but it's uniform.

Before:
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After:
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Back to the Corvette... since getting it back from my first choice of painter, I've had 4X local painters come and look at the car. What an eye-opener this has been!

here's some images of what we're up against...

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I bought the car from a guy in Nebraska and Imported it into the UK. The paint had been stripped off prior to me buying the car and the glass is not in the best condition. A previous owner had done a poor job of sticking on some home made wheel arch extensions and had cut the original arches to make them fit.

I took the body off, galvanised the chassis (I live in Scotland where they literally spray the roads with a liquid salt solution in the winter) rebuilt the engine and restored the rest of the running gear.

I've done some rudimentary strengthening repairs on areas that were damaged or had previews repairs and the body is now back on the car and it's now time to get it painted.

Of the 4X painters who have been to see the car:

Painter #1 - I found in the local classified advert website. He's been in the industry over 30 years and is now retired and is looking to earn some extra money doing localised repairs and small jobs. He seemed (this is just my perception) a little overwhelmed by the size of the project and didn't volunteer a full quote, but instead offered to come and help me complete all the prep and potentially shoot the colour/clear when the time came. After looking at the car he said he'd come over and help me do all the prep, a few hours at a time, for an hourly rate (which he didn't disclose) and then lay down the colour and clear. He said the best thing was to brush paint the car with cellulose primer to build up a heavy thickness before blocking it back flat and then top-coating it with 2K

Painter #2 - Runs a local backstreet bodyshop and said he'd take the car immediately and have it done in a month for "four grand or thereabouts" and said he's get it in a coat of high build 2K primer first then see what he was working with before starting to get the panels flat. The following day I visited his shop and it was full of taxis needing minor body repairs. The only nice car there was a Maserati Merak that was being used as a workbench with loads of very dusty boxes piled up on top of it. The shop was poorly lit and there was trash everywhere. I asked on of the employees about it and was told it belonged to the owner and hadn't moved in over a decade. It was taking up the best spot in the shop.

Painter #3 - Came recommended by the local garage that does all my vehicles yearly MoT tests (road-worthiness certification in the UK) I was told that I'd be surprised how inexpensive he was, and had been shown a few cars and vans he'd painted for under £1000 which looked good. He said it wasn't something he would normally take on, and he'd have to do it when he was quiet and I it would take around 3 months and the price was between £5000 to £6000. I got the impression he wasn't hugely keen on taking the job.

Painter #4 - Is these guys: https://www.option1sportscars.co.uk/ By this stage, I was feeling that I needed to contact a GRP specialist. This shop is a 600 mile round trip away so he wasn't able to view the car, but I sent him 50 high resolution photographs highlighting all the worst bits. He got back to me the next day and spent almost 30 minutes on the phone explaining how he would go about the process of painting the car. I was silent for most of this, but couldn't stop nodding in acknowledgement of what he was saying. He proposed to skin the whole shell in a new layer of tissue around 1.5mm thick, then block-sand it flat, then start with an adhesion promoter, then epoxy primer, then 2K primer (slicksand) then topcoat, then clear it, then flat & polish the clear. Honestly, this was the only guy I've spoken with who gave me confidence that he knew how to get a durable high quality finish on the car, then he hit me with the price: £12,000-£14,000 + (VAT@20%), which equates to potentially OVER $22,000 he did say that they warranty their work, and once he'd seen the car, he'd be able to give me a price that was fixed for the duration of the job, which would take 4-5 months. The guy didn't come across as a salesman, he came across a craftsman.

I don't know what to do...

I can’t really afford it... I run a small business (not in the automotive industry) and earn around £15000 a year at the moment, but hopefully that will increase over the next couple of years. I'd have to borrow about two thirds of that money, and I'm not sure the car is worth it. I intend to sell my Corvette next year and use the money as a deposit on a house, so while it's a hobby and I love the car, I must consider carefully whether dropping $20k+ on a paintjob will actually add much more value to the car than doing it myself, knowing I'm not going to be able to achieve the same level of finish.

If I'm honest with myself, it seems that I cant really afford the price of "a proper job" here in the UK and I'm very reluctant to choose the cheaper 4K, 5K or 6K options from a painters I'm nervous using, because I know the quality drop isn't linearly reflected in those prices, and the finish will be exponentially poorer: I'm likely to end up with something I could probably have achieved myself for perhaps £1000 worth of materials and a bunch of effort. I realise that choosing to live in Scotland means that when it comes to specialist trades like this, there isn't a huge spread of options, which perhaps is why I'm running into problems.

And after writing all of that... PHEW! It's helped a lot with my thought process... I think that perhaps my best option is to attempt to paint the car myself. What’s the worst that can happen?

I rent a workshop a few blocks from my house. I painted the Jag in there and it was Ok, (the process, not the finish) but this time around I'd want to make some changes...

Here’s some images of the workshop:
Only half of it is mine. The bay with the car in the blue cover is not my bay. Mine is to the right of that central workbench (which is mine) So I'd have to build a semi-temporary booth that sections off my area and organise some serious extraction too.

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As you can see, it gets adapted from time to time depending on what its needed for, so I cant help but think that if I were to spend a few hundred quid on some timber and plastic sheeting and extraction, I could cocoon my area and make a half decent "booth" that wouldn't piss off the guy who rents the other side side of the workshop too much, and then just get on with the prep. I'm going to need a bunch of help and advice from you lot, but from what I've seen, you're bloody good at that.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:35 pm
well, it's a pretty nice car when restored properly. No reason you can't do it yourself but as you know these 'glas cars take some discrete techniques to get right.

I honestly can't see doing the painting in the man-cave. You realize that even with proper ventilation (which requires a LOT of air being moved), there are fumes that will permeate the entire space.

$22K USD to prep the panels and finish to very good quality (maybe not show-winning, but very good), seems about right for that car.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:33 am
Yeah, I'd agree with Chris. I don't think that price is too bad considering what this car is and the degree of getting the work "right" on it. This Corvette body style in particular either looks "right" or looks like crap if you do it to some type of semi-okay standard. You could probably get it a long way toward reducing that price however most painters want to work over their prep. work.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:15 pm
Gents, I agree with both of you 100% and I very much appreciate your comments. They align with my thoughts almost exactly.

A) I think the 22K price quoted is reasonable... actually, "reasonable" is the wrong expression. "Accurate" is the expression I'd choose, for the volume of work involved It's accurate and commensurate with the amount of hours that need to be put into this car to achieve the finish quality and the the durability of the finish that this guy is saying he can deliver (and warranty) If I had the money, and if was keeping the car forever, I would already have booked it in with his company.

B) I have grave concerns about ventilation and attempting to do this in a work space shared with someone else who needs to work in there too. So today I broached this subject with my garage-buddy. He was very much unimpressed with my plans. Chris, you indicated that the fumes would be the main issue and I agree. Despite my best attempts to cocoon my bay in a temporary booth-style plastic sealed area, this is definitely going to be a huge issue.

C) In my garage I can spray primer, but I have no illusions about attempting to lay down colour and clear in my workshop: I should have made this clear in my initial post. It can't be done to anything like the standard I'm hoping for, but I do think it might be possible to do the bulk of the primer in the space I have and then perhaps rent a local booth to shoot the colour and clear when the time comes. I guess what I'm saying is: I can spend the next 9 months shooting primer over and over again in a home made "booth" in my workshop, until I'm satisfied that I've got the body as flat as I can possibly make it, before sending it out to someone else, to lay down the colour and clear.

D) I have time on my side. If a proper, real job costs 22k this actually means I can spend a year painting this thing myself and still come out on top, financially. (significantly so)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:26 pm
Okay, I just got off the road for the day after working the mobile side of my wood restoration business. One thing it does is give me time to let my mind wonder a bit and here's what I've thought about further with this..... I think dumping $22000 in that car may be hard to get back if you sell it. I mean, you just never know.... the car economy is a fickle changing environment.... So here's what you might do. First go look at a build thread about a guy that had much less experience than you, did some major body work on the car, and even shot a fairly high end paint effect with pretty darn good results....
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24221
I thought sure he was going to fall apart somewhere on that but he pushed and got through it with above average results. If you are going to do this though, you'd better go rent some dedicated work space so you can spread out and not worrying about crapping up the rest of the guys shop. If you basically follow the schedule that the $22000 job gives you I think you might be in the $2000 to $3000 range for materials plus whatever a garage runs you. I'd rent that for 3 to 6 months depending on what time you have available. I could see dumping 100 man hours in just getting that body massaged into shape. Not sure on the hour count for the paint as that is more dependent on just how good that final surface is on the body.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:25 pm
I've been thinking about this a lot, in fact, I've thought about little else for the last month.

Unfortunately, renting short-term shop-space in Edinburgh is cost prohibitive. Anything in my local area close enough to be viable that I'd be allowed to paint inside, would cost upwards of £1000 a month and usually come with a minimum 6 or 12 month contract, and I'd still have to pay my existing shop-rent. Also, The shop I currently rent is a bit of an anomaly in Scotland in that it was originally built as a confectionery factory and is incredibly well insulated. In the summer it never gets too hot and in the winter, even with snow on the ground outside, I can still work in just a T-shirt inside if the roller-shutter door is closed with no heating inside my shop. This is one of the things that make it a preferred location for painting as opposed to an out of town modern built shop that I would have to heat this winter. Humidity isn't a problem here but temperature is, and I'm just very lucky to have a shop where the inside temperature only fluctuates a few degrees irrespective of what the weather is doing outside.

I had a long chat to the guy with whom I share the workshop. He has some valid concerns and I need to be sympathetic to that. It looks like trying to construct a booth in my current area of the shop wont be feasible as it would have to stick out into the shared access space and he wouldn't be able to get his cars in and out easily, and there's the concerns with fumes and extraction which would be really difficult to overcome in my current spot, however, there is another bay in the workshop that he currently rents from me and parks two cars into it longways that I could commandeer for a few months, and give him my current area in exchange. I could fit the Corvette into the proposed area sideways and build a booth around it, without impeding his access to the rest of the workshop. And this area also happens to have pre-existing air extraction conduits that exit the building that I could potentially plumb into.

It would be a little tight for me, but still potentially very workable. He'd be happy because he'd gain my ramp and he could use the space in front of my ramp too, as I wont need access during this project, meaning he wont lose a car-space in the deal.

I'll take some photos tomorrow to show you.



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:34 pm
DarrelK wrote: First go look at a build thread about a guy that had much less experience than you, did some major body work on the car, and even shot a fairly high end paint effect with pretty darn good results....
http://www.autobody101.com/forums/viewt ... 13&t=24221
I thought sure he was going to fall apart somewhere on that but he pushed and got through it with above average results.


I'd skimmed this post before and was blown away the first time around. I'm re-reading it now with greater attention.

Incredible results and the guy can be truly proud of his finish.

Its very encouraging and proves that when folks say "It cant be done at home" what they really mean is, "it's very difficult but nothing's impossible with the right approach"

It was actually that exact thread, or more specifically, the volume of expert help that he A) received, and B) took on board and applied, that encouraged me to start this thread.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:01 pm
Well, if you can indeed work out the space problem I think I'd do it. Worst case scenario, is you end up getting your body work done and straightened out and probably end up at least in primer. Again, I thought the guy in that thread might quit with each hurdle he ran into..... but it all ended good.... :allgood:
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:25 pm
Here's an image of the space I have to work with, I've indicated where my booth walls will be in red lines.

With the car in sideways, there's about 4.5 feet of space either side, but at the nose and tail there's only 4 feet of extra space in total, so I'll be putting the car on a dolly and shunting it backwards and forwards depending on which end I'm working on.

One thing I started pondering today was how much it would cost to replace the entire body with a new one. I checked with a couple of different suppliers and it would seem that you can buy an entire new body for $5250. I wonder what the quality is like?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:45 pm
It's tight in there but yes, if you could put that car on wheel skates or other mobile platform that would work...... Well, that seems awfully cheap for a "repop" style fiberglass body. That's about the low end of a fiberglass body for a kit car here.....and the problem is you end up putting another 50 to 100 hours of massaging to straighten them out. There is also the "originality" problem that would hang with the car when you sell it. Lots and lots of Corvettes around me here and I don't think I've seen one entire body replacement on a pre-1970s car. I've worked with fiberglass for 46 years now and from personal experience I would rather work that old stuff than the "new" fiberglass that is being laid up......
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