Prepping a glass car body

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:52 pm
So I am building a Factory Five 33 Hot Rod and looking at doing the prep work myself before painting or wrapping the car. The body is a very rough glass job and is covered in gel coat.

I know that I first need to clean it with W/G and wash it before I start sanding, just like any other paint job. I figure I need to sand down the gel coat before I shoot anything onto it. But should I shoot a epoxy sealer onto it and then sand and block and fill, or block and fill and then shoot a sealer into it?

And even though this body will not have a lot of flex in it, does it need a flex additive in the paint or primer?

thanks for any help out there.

Tim Sapp
Frisco TX

http://hotrod.sapp-family.com

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:34 pm
Hey, Tim, welcome to the wonderful world of Fantastic Plastic! I've been around the Factory Five people since their inception. It's kind of funny you refer to their bodies as "rough." Depends on what you are comparing them too....... :happy: Okay, so what you have there is a semi-rigid modern fiberlgass composite with a sandable gel coat. No need for flex additives as almost all modern paints are very flexible. Even back in the "old days" of kit building I never saw the need/advantage of using flex additives with these composite materials.
So the idea with "sandable" gel coats was to make a "prep. and shoot" surface for painting. Manufacturers no longer had to make or stock colored bodies along with all that work that it took to make a colored gel coated body look somewhat like a decent paint job. The downside to the sandable gel coats is they can have what are called "flash mold seams" that must be addressed. You should be able to see (this is not true of all bodies, some are truly mono-bodies) where there are seam lines in the body. If you just carefully sand or grind back those areas you can see where smaller parts were made then grafted together in a larger mold to the main tub. If you have areas like this I would be inclined to sand them back and start looking for voids or signs of bubbles just underneath the glass. I use a Dremel tool with a carbide tip and open up these voids, add more resin and finely chopped fiberglass and dress them out. DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS? No, but on the first hot sunny day at some car show the gas in those buried bubbles or voids could work itself up to the paint surface and.....well, you get the picture.
Honestly, I take a dental probe and push on just about every square inch of fiberglass looking for voids/pops.
So what do you want to do from there? You can go a couple of ways..... I am old school and like to seal up the bodies with epoxy before moving on to filler work and 2k work, getting the body parts fitted, trimmed, etc. I put down another epoxy seal coat when that is all done. The body is mounted and I spend the next 2 to 6 months driving the car about once a week on clear dry days looking for the normal cracks and panel movement you usually see with almost all kits. If satisfied that stuff is not moving, on to cleaning and sanding of the epoxy and some fine tuning with 2k again.
And then there is the way that other guys do it..... sandable gel coat sand up, body work on bare glass, 2k, on to base/clear and poof!, they are done..... I've literally seen cars like this done in a couple of weeks. It is the flip of the coin as to IF you will have future problems in doing it that way but hey, it is the stigma that kit cars have always had following them.
Oh, hey, I almost forgot get that body out in the sun for a few weeks and let it "shrink" and off gas before you do anything to it.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:28 am
DarrelK wrote:Hey, Tim, welcome to the wonderful world of Fantastic Plastic! I've been around the Factory Five people since their inception. It's kind of funny you refer to their bodies as "rough." Depends on what you are comparing them too....... :happy: Okay, so what you have there is a semi-rigid modern fiberlgass composite with a sandable gel coat. No need for flex additives as almost all modern paints are very flexible. Even back in the "old days" of kit building I never saw the need/advantage of using flex additives with these composite materials.
So the idea with "sandable" gel coats was to make a "prep. and shoot" surface for painting. Manufacturers no longer had to make or stock colored bodies along with all that work that it took to make a colored gel coated body look somewhat like a decent paint job. The downside to the sandable gel coats is they can have what are called "flash mold seams" that must be addressed. You should be able to see (this is not true of all bodies, some are truly mono-bodies) where there are seam lines in the body. If you just carefully sand or grind back those areas you can see where smaller parts were made then grafted together in a larger mold to the main tub. If you have areas like this I would be inclined to sand them back and start looking for voids or signs of bubbles just underneath the glass. I use a Dremel tool with a carbide tip and open up these voids, add more resin and finely chopped fiberglass and dress them out. DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS? No, but on the first hot sunny day at some car show the gas in those buried bubbles or voids could work itself up to the paint surface and.....well, you get the picture.
Honestly, I take a dental probe and push on just about every square inch of fiberglass looking for voids/pops.
So what do you want to do from there? You can go a couple of ways..... I am old school and like to seal up the bodies with epoxy before moving on to filler work and 2k work, getting the body parts fitted, trimmed, etc. I put down another epoxy seal coat when that is all done. The body is mounted and I spend the next 2 to 6 months driving the car about once a week on clear dry days looking for the normal cracks and panel movement you usually see with almost all kits. If satisfied that stuff is not moving, on to cleaning and sanding of the epoxy and some fine tuning with 2k again.
And then there is the way that other guys do it..... sandable gel coat sand up, body work on bare glass, 2k, on to base/clear and poof!, they are done..... I've literally seen cars like this done in a couple of weeks. It is the flip of the coin as to IF you will have future problems in doing it that way but hey, it is the stigma that kit cars have always had following them.
Oh, hey, I almost forgot get that body out in the sun for a few weeks and let it "shrink" and off gas before you do anything to it.



Ok, I call it a rough body because of all the seams and the low points in the glass. I also posted my topic before I took a closer look. Over the weekend I shot some goo gone on it to get the tape residue off the body where they had taped on the doors, trunk and waterfall. Then I shot soap (dawn dish washing liquid) onto the body, inside and out, and went over the outside with a sponge. Then I rinsed it off with the pressure washer. I then soaped it up and rinsed it with the pressure washer again. It is currently sitting in my driveway catching a few rays. Tonight I am moving it into the yard and onto some saw horses where it will sit for a few days.

Yep, it sounds like you have spent much time with the FFR guys. :-) We have a multi-part body that is glassed together in a larger most to hold it in place. I have several seams across the body of the car. I was planning on cutting them open with a dremel and then filling them with chopped glass. I do have some experience with glassing in my other hobby of building and flying high power rockets. With that, I have some 1 oz. veil that I use at times as a sanding layer. Is something like this suggested for the seams after being filled with the chopped glass?

The seam does not appear to be as bad as I expected.

Image


I do plan on getting the car into driving shape and then driving it before any painting or wrapping is done. This will be done not only to make sure that the engine and drive train is bug free but to also make sure the body is settled. I may end up driving this in a sealed\primer for up to a year. (Also spreads out the cost of the final surface)

I am assuming that I need to hit the gel coat w/g remover and sand with 220 before I shoot the sealer on it? Is that a correct assumption?

The epoxy sealer I can understand but what is the 2K? From reading on the forum Friday it sounded like a sandable primer. I though it was a brand but then it looked like there is a 2k being sold by everyone. Again assuming here but doing some filling over the sealer and the shooting the 2K would give me the surface that I would do a guide coat on...

I really do want a nice surface to work with on the final steps. I am still deciding on having a paint job or a wrap on the car. Will probably go with a wrap if I decide on doing some complex graphics. If I go the way of solid colors and stripes with metal flakes then it will be shot on by someone who does it for a living. I just want to get most of the base work done myself.

There is not much to work on.... This is the body, and besides that, two doors and the trunk is it.

Image



So final question for now....

Where is the best place to buy supplies? I stopped by a PPG store and a Sherwin-Williams and they only have stuff for painting houses. I am looking for a w/g remover, good sand paper and a good face mask. I don't really want fiberglass or epoxy sealer in my lungs any time too soon.


Tim Sapp
Frisco, TX

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:12 am
Okay, I like your line of thinking already. The slower you can do your build (at least from a body prep. kind of thing) the less problems down the road. First, veil layer, excellent idea....it is a nice barrier that stops the underlying problems from surfacing later.

That first seam in the picture is at least, not that wide to deal with.....

Yes, do drive it as long as it is sealed up with an epoxy sealer. Epoxy is not something you want a lot of sunlight on but I've found that it is quite sufficient for this testing period.

There are two type of wax/grease remover I like to use on these gel coats. The first is the regular Prep Sol type and the second is a water based remover which is usually alcohol based. I would get the regular Prep Sol type from a local automotive paint jobber. You should also be able to get the water based w/g remover there as well or you can make a simple one with a 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol and water.

A 2k is usually a high build surfacing primer which helps in "shaping" the final coating surface. They are super high in solids (65%+ in some cases) and give you a surface to properly guide coat and shape. Although it can be built fairly thick you are blocking a lot of it back off.

Okay, about the wrap/paint decision. Based on this body and the way I am seeing your curves I would not be inclined to wrap it. Even wrapped by someone that knows what they are doing is somewhat of a problem because of "where" you are at. Here is how I seeing it playing out.....it takes careful manipulation with a heat gun to get over those curves. Well, you are in one of those intense day time heat places.....so, you can start to get movement in those wraps sooner than you might think. The vinyl has been heated/stressed into position and the sun comes along....and starts heating it. Now, I am not saying paint can't distort as well but the paint package is chemically and physically bonded through it's layers spreading that expanding/lifting force and is very flexible. Don't get me wrong I personally use vinyl as a trim addition in wear areas and have learned to work with it but I just think you may regret doing it where you live.

Okay, supplies....You want what is called a local automotive "paint jobber." This is usually an independent supplier that carries several brands and sells to the small to medium auto collision and restorer type shops and individuals. I'd check out this supplier in your area....
http://www.englishcolor.com/ABOUT/products.html
If you use their locator I found one of them about a half hour south of you in Plano. There might be others closer to you though.... I'd get the stuff you currently need there but when it comes time to buy epoxy, 2k, etc., you might consider the store front here. I've personally used the Tamco products and they are not only top notch but no sales tax and free shipping over $50.......
Metal, wood, fiberglass, we work it all... www.furniturephysicians.com We can restore the irreplaceable!



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:17 pm
Thanks for the advice Darrel. With the link you sent me I was able to find one of the English Color placed on my way home from work. Well, at least not to far off the path.

As for taking my time... I started this build in June of 2017 and just got to the point where I needed the body to keep going. So I can see where I am going to take the next six to eight months to get the body ready, I can drive it while working on the body so I am not in that much of a rush.

Image


Tim
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:02 pm
Good, you are on a pretty well thought out path.... Oh, and I did notice that you have O'Reillys around you as well. They are what I would call a "semi jobber" when it comes to autobody and paint supplies. They don't stock much but can order in basecoat colors, clears, and quite a bit of stuff that we use. Might be worth pricing against the other jobber. Paint has become sooooo expensive that you can easily throw $1000 to $1500 of just paint (a lot depends on colors/effects you are going to lay down) supplies at a car.
Hey, just curious, what drivetrain (engine/tranny) did you end up going with?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:52 am
DarrelK wrote:Good, you are on a pretty well thought out path.... Oh, and I did notice that you have O'Reillys around you as well. They are what I would call a "semi jobber" when it comes to autobody and paint supplies. They don't stock much but can order in basecoat colors, clears, and quite a bit of stuff that we use. Might be worth pricing against the other jobber. Paint has become sooooo expensive that you can easily throw $1000 to $1500 of just paint (a lot depends on colors/effects you are going to lay down) supplies at a car.
Hey, just curious, what drivetrain (engine/tranny) did you end up going with?



Ok, I dropped by English Color yesterday on the way home from work. Bought some W/G remover, some body filler, glazing putty, and some good sand paper for the DA. I also bought a 7 piece Dura Block sanding kit, some 120 and 220 grit sand paper for the blocks, a 3M half face respirator and some Organic Vapor filters from Amazon.com.

Still have to find some of the filler application stuff. He did not have any squeegees or anything.


Since you asked... :goodjob: As you probably know most of the FFR stuff is designed for taking just about anything. Seems that it is mostly Ford but I am not a big Ford guy.

So the motor and transmission was pulled from my '89 Corvette. I had the roller block machined to 30 over and then line honed. I put in flat top pistons that with the heads and gaskets should give me around a 10:1 compression. I dropped in a new Comp cam with a bit over a half inch lift with a long overlapping duration for a choppy idle. I am about have the heads machined for bigger springs and will probably go with 1.6 Roller rockers at the same time. I dumped the TPI fuel injection that would gasp for air at 4500 rpm and have gone with a Holley 750. That is probably too big of a carb but I will look into that once I can tune it. It should at least let me get to the 6000 rpm that the cam is made for.

The transmission is an automatic 700R4 four speed transmission. I do call this one a four speed because for the Corvette the transmission was set up to allow a shift into fourth while at WOT.

While in the Corvette this motor (without the upgrades) and transmission produced a meager 240HP and a nice 309 ftp torque at the rear wheels. That was with a rear end with a 3.08 gear ratio. The rebuilt motor should give me around 350HP and 400 ftp torque, which is not bad for a car only weighing around 2100 pounds. All this will be turning a Mustang 8.8 rear end with a 3.27 gear ratio.

I can't wait until it is running and I can drive it around.

Tim Sapp
Frisco, TX



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:21 am
I just though I would post a few more pictures of the seams. They are not real wide but are definitely going to have to be worked and filled.

Image


Image


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And here is the engine you asked about.

Image



Tim Sapp

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:31 pm
Tim, nice drivetrain combo. Should have good torque punch with easy cruise. Wouldn't even be surprised if it got good fuel economy. I don't think that 750 carb is too much of a stretch for that motor. Just might require some foolin' around with jets. I ran a 670 Holley Street Avenger in supercharged rear engine rotary car and actually went "up" with secondary jets.
Wow, those are the worst seams I've ever seen lately.....especially coming out of Factory Five. Looks more like glue work than proper flash seaming. Proper flash seams should be ground down about 1 to 2 inches on each side with a band of laid up resin/mat on top and then cloth reinforcement underneath. The best flash seams I've seen were just barely visible from the outside and clearly showed the cloth banding from the inside. For what they charge for those body kits I think that's pretty shoddy work.......
Metal, wood, fiberglass, we work it all... www.furniturephysicians.com We can restore the irreplaceable!



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:17 pm
That is why I called it a rough glass job... The GTM has even worse looking seams on its body. It sounds like they are backwards from what you say. The seam area on the bottom is smooth, well as smooth as you can be with no gel coat or surface coating.

The 750 will be a good start but from what Comp cams says I should be using a 650. Once I get it running to tune I will be putting a wide band O2 sensor on it. That will tell me what I need on the engine and how to tune the carb.

Tim
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