Turbine cooling

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:49 pm
Doright - I'm paying attention to both you and DarrelK and any input is much appreciated. Otherwise, I would never had researched intercoolers. To be fair, I have no interest in air to air intercoolers. They just won't do what I'm looking for. At best, they'll get to somewhere north of ambient. If ambient is 100°F, then it ain't good enough. However, water to air is worth looking at closer. I can use chilled water and even if efficiency is on the low side, the temperature drop should be significant. And I'll agree that pressure drop should be low. I'd just like to know what low is. In other words, if I choose an intercooler and find it to have a one psi drop across it, but know that a larger one might have a .25 psi drop, then I might go ahead and get the larger one. Or it might make best sense to get a small one, but without turbulators, take the efficiency hit knowing the pressure drop will be minimal.

At this point, I still think the best solution is to cool both the inlet air and the output air.

In any event, I have plenty of time to put more thought into it and do more research.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:33 pm
Chilling the incoming air is a Good idea But Your Turbine is a Compressor Hence its compressing the air, and Air Temp Temp increases as it is compressed.
It is true if you chill the incoming air the air exiting the compressor will also be reduced But not as efficiently as it would be with some sort of cooler after the compressor.

Air to liquid coolers are very efficient but they are also very expensive.

I am not so sure why you would need or want to go under ambient temp though?
Dennis Barnett
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:23 pm
Turbine systems are just soooo.... bizarre compared to compressed air. My first exposure to them was 38 years ago. I was at a demonstration out in Wisconsin where they were introducing the new French made Volumaire turbine spray systems for wood finishing. You actually strapped the turbine to your hip with a short insulated hose about 4 feet long coming out the back of it and wrapping around your back to the gun. I used to wear an insulated apron because the turbine would get so hot. We used that gun system in our wood shops for about 2 years until the first Sicmo units began to appear.
On the heat thing.....the only thing you really need to achieve with cooling is just avoid heating the air at the gun tip over the 100 F. mark. A 4 stage turbine motor with standard steel blade wheels can drive ambient room air past the 130 F range if that ambient air temp. at the intakes gets into the 80 to 90 range.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:28 am
I wanted a Turbine system for a while when I first started to get into body work about 20 years ago there were several on the market and I knew about the heat issue then.
I wanted one so I could avoid the whole Air compressor battle deal in the end I gave into the Battle due to mixed reviews on the net and talking to owners of a few systems and Lack of Guns.

At the time I had planned on building a cooler such as the one I have mentioned to battle the heat issue, Only at the time coolers were much more expensive back then.

Aircraft use coolers very similar to the ones we are talking about and Not all that much bigger mind you! and drop 450 degree air down below freezing albeit the system is a Lot more complex as its used for Pressurization of the cabin and heating & cooling.
It is a bit Larger BUT the principle that I am talking about is the same.
Dennis Barnett
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:43 am
Ok, maybe a little background and a look forward would be helpful.

In another life, I was an auto mechanic and did body work on the side. So I'm not new to body work and painting, but what I know is dated. Playing catch-up now.

As I near retirement, my plan is to outfit my shop with whatever toys I want. Being able to apply coatings is part of the plan. To that end, I chose turbine systems primarily because I have no desire to buy a large compressor. And I want everything to be as versatile and flexible as possible. I don't want to limit what I can spray simply because of turbine air temperature.

When I look at costs and efficiency, the liquid to air is really the best way to go, for me. I already have everything I need to move water. I would need the intercooler. Comparing as close as possible apples to apples, the liquid to air intercooler is roughly double the cost of air to air. But I still need to move the air across it. I can't imagine a box fan being enough. So when I factor in a good air mover, I'm approaching the cost of the liquid to air intercooler. And since the best an air to air intercooler will do is drop temperature something higher than ambient, then liquid to air makes best sense for me.

As far as cooling turbine inlet air, the idea is to also cool the turbine. In pretty much anything that runs at high temperatures, if you can lower the temperature, you increase its reliability.

I don't see any of this being hard to do, but I do want to buy once, cry once, and know that once done, it will do what I want.

Hope this explains what my goals are.

Again, thanks for the input.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:00 pm
DarrelK wrote:Turbine systems are just soooo.... bizarre compared to compressed air. My first exposure to them was 38 years ago. I was at a demonstration out in Wisconsin where they were introducing the new French made Volumaire turbine spray systems for wood finishing. You actually strapped the turbine to your hip with a short insulated hose about 4 feet long coming out the back of it and wrapping around your back to the gun. I used to wear an insulated apron because the turbine would get so hot. We used that gun system in our wood shops for about 2 years until the first Sicmo units began to appear.
On the heat thing.....the only thing you really need to achieve with cooling is just avoid heating the air at the gun tip over the 100 F. mark. A 4 stage turbine motor with standard steel blade wheels can drive ambient room air past the 130 F range if that ambient air temp. at the intakes gets into the 80 to 90 range.



DarrelK - Just for the sake of discussion, let's say I can control air temp always to achieve 80°F (I can do this by playing with water temperature and flows). Doesn't this take one variable out of the problem of applying any type of coating? If I know that at this gun tip air temperature that I need to adjust only due to ambient air temperature, doesn't this simplify record keeping and repeat-ability?

In my little pea brain, my thoughts were never to only lower temperature, but to be able to maintain a specific temperature, even if done crudely.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:54 pm
Just for argument sake

Fuji 4 stage turbine sprayer $850
Air to liquid cooler $170
Additional materials to make it work $100

Frustrations of making it work? $?

Ingersoll Rand 5hp single stage air compressor on Amazon $899
It Will run a Paint gun plus a DA sander And it will run a Sand blaster and a Blast cabinet Mini Die grinders all are something a Turbine sprayer can't do! These are all needed Items in the game of Auto restoration.
Will a Small air compressor run these items? Yes and no!
Yes you still need a Water separator/Drier.
Dennis Barnett
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Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:15 pm
Doright wrote:Just for argument sake

Fuji 4 stage turbine sprayer $850
Air to liquid cooler $170
Additional materials to make it work $100

Frustrations of making it work? $?

Ingersoll Rand 5hp single stage air compressor on Amazon $899
It Will run a Paint gun plus a DA sander And it will run a Sand blaster and a Blast cabinet Mini Die grinders all are something a Turbine sprayer can't do! These are all needed Items in the game of Auto restoration.
Will a Small air compressor run these items? Yes and no!
Yes you still need a Water separator/Drier.


Nothing to argue. This was never about economics. This was a choice. I really don't want another large, noisy compressor.
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