Help with Sanding cart tool setup.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:26 am
Hey folks, I need some more guidance here.
I am coming in from 20 years sales side.
I am not an auto body guy, but have recently (6 months ago) asked to examine and now oversee/streamline this dept moving forward.

In a quest to keep good body guys happy in the past, the former manager gave employees a stipend for tools and would stock the supplies needed for those specific tools. As a result we have tons of different stuff that has accumulated over his 15 years and too many employees to count. This has always sounded crazy to me, but he is not longer with us. I want to standardize this setup and take control over tools and supplies. Employees will no longer be able to take tools out of the shop period.

Here is what I would love some help with.
I want to set up Body repair carts that I will account for.
I want them to be all basically having the same tools, sand paper, vac and what ever else you can think of.
I understand there will be some job specific tools needed, but I am taking about the basic meat and potatoes stuff.

I would love to hear how you set up your ideal cart and what tools you need.
I am not cheap, but need to make this cost effective for now. Please hold of on the Hutchins DA's. I know they are great, but I a looking more mid-level stuff here. As of right now, employees are assigned a job and they work on it until it is ready for paint. Then it is returned to them for finish wet sanding and polishing.

What make and model and size of sanders would be needed?
We have air for most, but I have no problem with electric tools like the PORTER-CABLE Variable Speed Polisher if most of you think it is the best way to go.

Dura Block 7 Piece Sanding Block Kit for each cart correct?



Sand paper????
I just want 1 brand and 1 place to order it all.
I know I am going to get a million different options here.
Is Indasa Rhynogrip the best bang for buck??

Inter face pad recommendations too?

Vacs.
I already have Ridgid Shop vacs for each cart.
However, is there a hose system I can get for each cart to make these uniformed?

Filler and glaze thoughts?

G&W remover?
Waterborne/


What other tools besides basic hand tools needed for panel removal would you recommend?

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies. I am sincerely grateful for and and all advise.

Jack



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:41 am
Jack

Your a Perfect example of what has destroyed most all company's in this country.
Why don't you take a Few years LEARNING HOW TO DO THE WORK BEFORE REINVENTING THE WHEEL telling a tech how to do his job and what to use when you have no fricken clue!

You have a Lot of Nerve coming to a web forum such as this to ask our opinions instead of asking your Techs! They Now what works and what they want there are reasons they want certain tools and equipment and consumables.

Don't listen to them You will FAIL! You'll Loose experienced Help driven off by your Attitude that You know more than they do when you don't know **** from Shinola!

:realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad:
Dennis B.
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:32 am
Thank you for the encouraging words. Much appreciated.
I did go to my techs and have them list all the tools and consumables they have and like to use. No one could agree on anything. As a result of this, I proposed the idea of a cart that would all have the uniformed cart which would be purchased, stocked and maintained by me as a option. All 7 of them though it was a good idea and agreed to try it for my proposed 6 month trial period.
I have all ready arranged for Dynabrade to come to the shop and do a full demonstration of what they have to offer and they agreed to bring the best stuff they have for us to try for 2 weeks. I called them 1st. Why because they are great tools and American made.

Jack

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:19 pm
Dynabrade? Really, I've got some of there old crap laying around. Wouldn't even stand behind their warranties for my wood shop application. When you go to buy parts you might as well just buy the whole piece of equipment..... Hutchins is the last of the American stuff I would still trust. Anything less and you might as well just go with Harbor Freight's Bauer line.... it's not bad for the price/performance.... at least you can afford to pitch it when it folds....
Metal, wood, fiberglass, we work it all... www.furniturephysicians.com We can restore the irreplaceable!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:38 pm
I've been in Jack's position before in a big shop and I've also run my own shop, with and without employees. So I think I understand where he's coming from.

Dennis sounds like a grumpy old bugger, but he speaks the truth about getting the employees on board and not making arbitrary decisions based on costs alone. If the guys on the shop floor don't support what management are doing they'll unravel your plans quicker than you can imagine possible.

Here are a few thoughts, from my experience:

Tools
It's common here for tradesmen to have their own tools, especially in a repair or restoration type shop. In a factory, actually making stuff, it's a completely different situation.

Paying your tradesmen a tool allowance is an excellent idea. While most shops have "shop tools" these are generally just basics and they get little care. Shop tools get little care and so actually cost the business because of losses and more frequent replacement or repair. You do need to provide basic infrastructure though, so things like compressors and vacuums would be the shop's - ownership and responsibility.

If a tradesman owns his own tools and is responsible for maintenance and replacement he will take much more care with them. He also feels that he has the power to make his own decisions on things like brand and will generally choose quality but with regard to what suits him in terms of things like comfort and his own operating style. Thus some painters will use SATA guns while others prefer Devilbiss or Iwata. If you force a painter with a slow style into using SATA guns then you'll have issues with runs and an unhappy painter who knows he can do better with a different tool. It's exactly the same with other tools, sanders etc.

You may well find that some of your guys will subsidise what you pay them in a tool allowance and go ahead and buy that Hutchins sander. Others may prefer 3M but few will turn up with junk from the Harbour Freights of this world. So, you'll likely get better quality tools being used in the shop.

The tool allowance (paid weekly in their wages) means that they have to be responsible and keep this money available for tools when needed. Most seem capable of doing that but sometimes you get one who isn't. Counselling may help or, what I did was took the cash out and put it in the safe each week so it was there when he needed it. Horses for courses, you know.

The other, important ting is that shop tools disappear. "Dunno boss, it was there last week...". Tradesman owned tools almost never go "missing".

Consumables
Ok, this is where it starts to get complex.

Type
First thing is to narrow down the range, in order to reduce inventory cost. That means defining each process and determining which style of product is capable of doing the job. So, for blocking, do you use rolls, sheets or pre-cut lengths? No backing, stick-on or hook and loop? You certainly don't want 3 different styles in each grit size so rationalisation here is a must.

Look at what's being used now by the majority and use this as a guide. Involve them in the process. They're not stupid and will understand what you're trying to do. More importantly they'll support decisions that they've had a contribution to.

So, for example, the decision may be to standardise on hook and loop for 6" sanding discs, dry sanding type for coarse grades, dry and wet and dry for the mid-range grades and wet only for the finer. Long block paper might be stick-on only.

What you want to do in this part of the process is just decide on what you're going to standardise on.

Brand and Source
Try to decide on a single supplier, if possible. Your buying power will be multiplied if you are a large and more valuable account.

Consider bringing as much together as you can. So, can your paint supplier also supply consumables? What about tools? Are they reasonably accessible and/or do they have a reliable delivery service? It's no good if that sheet of sandpaper you need is 20c cheaper when it takes a week to get to you or they're constantly out of stock.

Narrow potential suppliers down to a few candidates and get them to come out and do demos so your tradesmen can see, use and make some recommendations on.

In terms of brand(s), again narrow down to a few candidates based on performance only. Usually this will mean that you will knock out the cheaper, lower quality stuff.

Once you've got brand(s) sorted then starts the fun bit of working out best value. 3M is generally recognised as the best quality in many respects, but sometimes there are other brands that perform nearly as well but have much more attractive pricing. What you're looking for here is value, not just price.

Sometimes there are standout products. For example, I only use Prepsol and AAA thinner from PPG. Even at double the price they're still so much better than anything else, even from other paint manufacturers. Experience is important in making some of these choices, as is knowledge of local brands.

Good luck. It's a big task to change something that has been well established but, with the support of your guys it can be a worthwhile exercise.
Chris



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:59 am
out of high school i worked in the machine shop trades. worked for a company that gave a tool allowance. their choice of store, employees choice of tools . only stipulation was the tools had to be used for the job.
i was able to buy what i wanted. other machinists bought what they wanted.
management kept their nose out of what brands and tools we purchased because management knew they had no clue what we needed or what we did with the tools.
and the peasants rejoiced. :happy:



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:09 am
NFT5 wrote:Dennis sounds like a grumpy old bugger, but he speaks the truth about getting the employees on board and not making arbitrary decisions based on costs alone. If the guys on the shop floor don't support what management are doing they'll unravel your plans quicker than you can imagine possible.



Ya I am a Grumpy old fart!
I am out of this thread as I have nothing constructive to add to it other than the Grumblings of a Old Tech.
Dennis B.
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:34 pm
you do this for a body tech ? buddy hand them the cart and let them fill it with what they need, you will never get body men to agree on anything lol
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:54 am
PainterDave wrote:you do this for a body tech ? buddy hand them the cart and let them fill it with what they need, you will never get body men to agree on anything lol



:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :pcorn: :goodjob: :clap:
Dennis B.
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:10 am
NFT5 wrote:I've been in Jack's position before in a big shop and I've also run my own shop, with and without employees. So I think I understand where he's coming from.

Dennis sounds like a grumpy old bugger, but he speaks the truth about getting the employees on board and not making arbitrary decisions based on costs alone. If the guys on the shop floor don't support what management are doing they'll unravel your plans quicker than you can imagine possible.

Here are a few thoughts, from my experience:

Tools
It's common here for tradesmen to have their own tools, especially in a repair or restoration type shop. In a factory, actually making stuff, it's a completely different situation.

Paying your tradesmen a tool allowance is an excellent idea. While most shops have "shop tools" these are generally just basics and they get little care. Shop tools get little care and so actually cost the business because of losses and more frequent replacement or repair. You do need to provide basic infrastructure though, so things like compressors and vacuums would be the shop's - ownership and responsibility.

If a tradesman owns his own tools and is responsible for maintenance and replacement he will take much more care with them. He also feels that he has the power to make his own decisions on things like brand and will generally choose quality but with regard to what suits him in terms of things like comfort and his own operating style. Thus some painters will use SATA guns while others prefer Devilbiss or Iwata. If you force a painter with a slow style into using SATA guns then you'll have issues with runs and an unhappy painter who knows he can do better with a different tool. It's exactly the same with other tools, sanders etc.

You may well find that some of your guys will subsidise what you pay them in a tool allowance and go ahead and buy that Hutchins sander. Others may prefer 3M but few will turn up with junk from the Harbour Freights of this world. So, you'll likely get better quality tools being used in the shop.

The tool allowance (paid weekly in their wages) means that they have to be responsible and keep this money available for tools when needed. Most seem capable of doing that but sometimes you get one who isn't. Counselling may help or, what I did was took the cash out and put it in the safe each week so it was there when he needed it. Horses for courses, you know.

The other, important ting is that shop tools disappear. "Dunno boss, it was there last week...". Tradesman owned tools almost never go "missing".

Consumables
Ok, this is where it starts to get complex.

Type
First thing is to narrow down the range, in order to reduce inventory cost. That means defining each process and determining which style of product is capable of doing the job. So, for blocking, do you use rolls, sheets or pre-cut lengths? No backing, stick-on or hook and loop? You certainly don't want 3 different styles in each grit size so rationalisation here is a must.

Look at what's being used now by the majority and use this as a guide. Involve them in the process. They're not stupid and will understand what you're trying to do. More importantly they'll support decisions that they've had a contribution to.

So, for example, the decision may be to standardise on hook and loop for 6" sanding discs, dry sanding type for coarse grades, dry and wet and dry for the mid-range grades and wet only for the finer. Long block paper might be stick-on only.

What you want to do in this part of the process is just decide on what you're going to standardise on.

Brand and Source
Try to decide on a single supplier, if possible. Your buying power will be multiplied if you are a large and more valuable account.

Consider bringing as much together as you can. So, can your paint supplier also supply consumables? What about tools? Are they reasonably accessible and/or do they have a reliable delivery service? It's no good if that sheet of sandpaper you need is 20c cheaper when it takes a week to get to you or they're constantly out of stock.

Narrow potential suppliers down to a few candidates and get them to come out and do demos so your tradesmen can see, use and make some recommendations on.

In terms of brand(s), again narrow down to a few candidates based on performance only. Usually this will mean that you will knock out the cheaper, lower quality stuff.

Once you've got brand(s) sorted then starts the fun bit of working out best value. 3M is generally recognised as the best quality in many respects, but sometimes there are other brands that perform nearly as well but have much more attractive pricing. What you're looking for here is value, not just price.

Sometimes there are standout products. For example, I only use Prepsol and AAA thinner from PPG. Even at double the price they're still so much better than anything else, even from other paint manufacturers. Experience is important in making some of these choices, as is knowledge of local brands.

Good luck. It's a big task to change something that has been well established but, with the support of your guys it can be a worthwhile exercise.



Wow Chris! Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response and all of those who have taken the time to respond.

I will take all the advise given and formulate a better plan. I certainly see the added value of tradesman taking ownship their tools.
Maybe with better controls a tradesman purchased Cart would work.

I am not above admitting my idea was not the best way to move forward with inventory control and uniformity. I am committed to being a life long learner and will never let my ego interfere with doing what is best for my shop.

Thanks Jack :rockon:

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