Advise from shop owners needed.....

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:38 pm
edpol wrote:Not for anything, but there doesn't seem to be evidence that Scott priced PPG laser red paint for $1000.


OK. I made it up.

ScottsGT wrote:I checked pricing on ProSpray vs. PPG on a '95 Ford code E9, Laser Red metallic tri coat system.

PPG = $1000 for base and tinted clear. (1 gal. of each)

ProSpray + $600 for the same thing.


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17033&start=10



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:46 am
ScottsGT, They handle things differently here in Michigan as we are what is referred to as a "no fault" insurance state. What that means is if you get in an accident your insurance company pays for the repairs regardless of who was at fault. If you don't carry full coverage insurance on your car and you get in an accident then your out of luck and have to pay for the repairs yourself. Also here in Michigan if you don't list all add ons that you installed on your car with your insurance company (along with a higher insurance premium) then the insurance company will not recognize nor pay for any add ons you put on the car. The KBB private party value on a '95 Mustang GT in good condition ( it cannot be excellent condition what seriously faded paint) with 70,00 miles ( a kind guess on my part) the private party value is $5,700.

About 4 months ago I bought a 2007 Mustang Shelby with 14K miles. Black with the silver stripes. Thats a fun car to drive, no tickets yet. I have owned and restored several '65 to '73 Mustangs over the years and for the last year was thinking about restoring for myself a '65 - '68 Mustang fastback. I figured I'd have at least $15,000 in the thing (it would have to be rust free to start with or I wouldn't want it) then I'd still have a couple hundred hours of work in the restoration. I like the newer generation of Mustangs ('05 on up) and when I came across my '07 Shelby at a good price I jumped on that instead of another full restoration.


As far as the bodyshop/paint shop goes -- What does your written estimate of repairs that the shop should have had you sign say about how the paint work will be handled ?



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:49 am
edpol wrote:Not for anything, but there doesn't seem to be evidence that Scott priced PPG laser red paint for $1000. Furthermore, the insurance company paid Scott, not the body shop. Therefore, if they went ahead and painted part of the car, he'd still have to repaint the entire car, which would end up costing him money. It would cost him the labor and material the shop would charge, plus the paint to repaint what the shop already painted.
As Scott said, he thinks $2000 over and above what the insurance company paid him is a fair price to paint the rest of the car that was not covered in the settlement. But the shop doesn't do all overs, and if they did, they'd want $4000 to paint 60% of the car, plus what they figured for painting the 40% that was damaged. That's where the problem started.
Scott figures he'll end up painting the car, so he wants the shop to just do the body work and primer. That's where the problem escalated, since the shop no longer releases cars without being painted, for legal reasons. But before he was told of this policy, Scott was basically assured that something could be worked out so he could just have the damage repaired, and the repaired area primered. It wasn't the owner who made this assurance, so whoever it was, apparently misspoke
Scott is a good customer, and recommends the shop often, plus his brother is the shop's insurance broker for the business. So Scott used his brother's relationship with the shop to work out a deal, and convinced the owner to just do the repairs without painting.
Problem solved.


Danm! Someone finally read the post as I wrote it and didn't read things into it!

Thanks. :worthy:
Just trying to relearn what I did 20 years ago!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:23 am
Nope, someone just told you what you wanted to hear.......



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:26 am
Danm! Someone finally read the post as I wrote it and didn't read things into it!

Thanks.


I like to read and/or listen to what people say carefully. We're all misunderstood too many times, then misquoted, or accused of saying things we didn't say.

edpol wrote:
Not for anything, but there doesn't seem to be evidence that Scott priced PPG laser red paint for $1000.

OK. I made it up.

ScottsGT wrote:
I checked pricing on ProSpray vs. PPG on a '95 Ford code E9, Laser Red metallic tri coat system.

PPG = $1000 for base and tinted clear. (1 gal. of each)

ProSpray + $600 for the same thing.


Okay, I didn't notice it was Scott who made that post in another thread. I also said there doesn't seem to be evidence...
So no, I wasn't saying you made it up. Perhaps I should have asked where it said Scott quoted a price for PPG paint, to make it easier to understand for less intelligent folks.
Since they would be painting 40% of the car, they'd need less than a gallon each of base, tinted clear, and clearcoat. And suppose they used less expensive paint, like prospray, or, what some painters tell me their shop uses for older cars, PPG Shopline. To paint the other 60%, what would be a reasonable price, assuming no prep work is needed other than scuffing and/or priming?



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:36 am
bloverby wrote:
edpol wrote:Not for anything, but there doesn't seem to be evidence that Scott priced PPG laser red paint for $1000.


OK. I made it up.

ScottsGT wrote:I checked pricing on ProSpray vs. PPG on a '95 Ford code E9, Laser Red metallic tri coat system.

PPG = $1000 for base and tinted clear. (1 gal. of each)

ProSpray + $600 for the same thing.


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17033&start=10


Yes, I did say this, obviously. But think about what I'm pricing here. A whole gallon of base for a convertible?? Honestly, how much do you think a car the size of a '95 Mustang would use? 3 quarts tops? And they are going to need a quart to spray the damaged area already. So maybe two quarts more than the job already is taking?
And my price was an across the counter retail at an autobody supply shop. I do know for a fact when I worked at a shop that had a mixing system, prices were lower.
I was buying a gallon of each just to have extra since it has been a few years since I used a base coat and I have only once shot a "candy" paint, or Tricoat as these are known as. Wanted some extra for "practice runs" pardon the pun on the runs.....
And the $2K I threw out there was just a baseline number. It was in reference as a comparison to the $4K to $8K they were talking. (Shop guy told me $4K and the owner mentioned $8K) But honestly, my bottom line no go price would have been $2500 considering the rest of the car just needs a good sanding and no paint stripping.
Just trying to relearn what I did 20 years ago!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:43 am
$3-4K would be the running average to refinish the remaining portions of the car at a reputable large collision facility.

The estimate should include way more than just prep +paint. It would in fact be very detailed and include body times for R&I , belt mouldings, interior panels, exterior mirrors, door handles, rocker moulding, front cover, etc. for that car.

The techs are likely flate rate and they aren't going to touch a car unless they get paid for every operation.

Then there's going to be a whole other list of paint related times to prep and spray the car. Not so simple as just a scuff and shoot if your dealing with a high end shop.

Factor in that the customer pay jobs often have a higher labor rate than the ins. rate and it doesn't take long to hit a $2K paint bill....

It's up to the shop to price the job not the customer......



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:55 am
bloverby wrote:$3-4K would be the running average to refinish the remaining portions of the car at a reputable large collision facility.

The estimate should include way more than just prep +paint. It would in fact be very detailed and include body times for R&I , belt mouldings, interior panels, exterior mirrors, door handles, rocker moulding, front cover, etc. for that car.

The techs are likely flate rate and they aren't going to touch a car unless they get paid for every operation.

Then there's going to be a whole other list of paint related times to prep and spray the car. Not so simple as just a scuff and shoot if your dealing with a high end shop.

Factor in that the customer pay jobs often have a higher labor rate than the ins. rate and it doesn't take long to hit a $2K paint bill....

It's up to the shop to price the job not the customer......


Correct you are. I would never argue the price with the shop, just give them a go or no go. That's called capitalism. But at some point ($8K) you can tell it is a BS price to run a customer off. I would love to have access to newer versions of the old shop rate books I use to have so I could see what the "book rates" are for the rest of the car.
Anyone know of an online rate chart?
Just trying to relearn what I did 20 years ago!



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:40 pm
I keep a log on my time working on my '63 Tbird. I started 7:00 one morning, and removed everything I wanted to remove, which was the hood, cowl, fenders and front bumper, followed by the underhood wiring, and misc. underhood parts; engine; seats, console, kick panels, carpet, int. trim, sun visors, headliner and int. quarterpanels; door panels, everything inside the doors and rear quarter windows; trim off the roof rails, fenders, door and Qpanels, rear bumper, and everything else not getting painted. Also removed the deck lid.
I was done a little before 1:00. Bear in mind, I'm disabled, so I needed some breaks, and had a little help from my neighbor getting the engine out.
I suspect it will take double that to reinstall, considering the panels will have to line up correctly. So that's about 18 hours. I spent another 2 hours getting the exhaust pipes, steering box, and brake booster/master cyl. out. So I'll add another hour to reinstall as an estimate. It'll be easier to install these items.
That's 21 hours. I'm assuming someone in better physical condition could do all that in about 1/3 less time, so let's say 14 hours. Last I checked, labor rate was $90 in this area, so that work alone would be $1250-$1300.
On a '95 Mustang convertible, with much lighter parts, and not having to remove the engine and a bunch of the other parts, I'd say it would be more like 10 hours, about $900, in this locality. I'm basing this on my experience with the Tbird, and looking at my friends '94 Mustang, so it's just a guess. If my guess is close to accurate, for an estimate of $3000 to do 60% of the Mustang, that would leave roughly $2100 for surface prep and paint. Assuming a lower priced paint than PPG Deltron, that would be $300 for the base and tinted clear, another $75 for decent clearcoat, and maybe another $75 for primers. (?)
Let's just say $500 for the aforementioned items, plus misc. supplies. When I was in the home improvement business, some jobs required adding a profit on the materials, rather than just a flat rate for the job. So let's say adding 50% to the materials, which translates to a 1/3 profit. Now we're up to $750 for materials. That would leave $1350 for the rest of the labor, so the total labor cost would be $2250, for 60% of the car.
Does that sound right? Just asking out of curiosity.



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:36 pm
ScottsGT, I'll ask the same question again --- What does your written estimate of repairs that the shop should have had you sign say about how the paint work will be handled ?
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