bad body shops

A place for professionals to network and discuss the business and technology inside the shop.



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Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:55 pm
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:34 am
over in england at the moment the body shop buisness is doing very well. it seem's like a new body shop is opening up every month, all of them are very busy, BUT THEY ALL DO VERY BAD JOBS, one man has opened his 3rd shop and his work is shocking :shock: but he get's loads of custom, they all have iraqi asylum seekers/saddam's ex army working in them.
i can do a near perfect job for a customer and they will pick out a minor minor defect, but if they go to one of the bad shops their paint come's back looking like a 2 year old has painted it with a rattle can and they are happy :shock: .this has happened a few time's to me.
any of you had similar experiences :?:



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Location: pennsylvania
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:36 pm
I can't believe people can't see the waves either. I guess it's cause we do this stuff for a living. Whenever I'm sitting in traffic, I enjoy looking down the sides of peoples cars and picking out body metal work. Too many people in this trade go for the speed thing and use a da for everything. But I guess if customers never notice the waves, I'm the dummy for still using a block.



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Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:55 pm
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:17 pm
yeh most places use a DA for everything, i myself only use a DA if the bondo is too thick and for removing/feather edging the paint.
block is best, but time is money so i am a dummy as well for still using a block. saying that i'm happy that when i finish a job i'm satisfied and have stuck to my principle of not doing cheap/quick job's
i also enjoy :oops: doing the, spot the body/paint repair thing on cars too :lol: , can spot a repair a mile away.
some of these new car have awfull paint finishes, talk about orange peel :shock:



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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:44 am
Location: San Francisco Bay area
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:19 pm
You know guys, I have to tell you something.

First off, YOU do this for a living, of course you are going to see things "mere mortals" aren't.

Did the shop meet the customers expectations?

Second, these cars we repair are just cars to most people. It's only a payment to them. They don't love it, they could care less if it isn't perfect. As long as it get's their family from point A to point B it's fine.

Did the shop meet the customers expectations?

Three, here is the funny part. Because the average "mortal" couldn't in their wildest dreams do what we do, they assume when they come to pick up the car they will be able to see where the damage was.

Did the shop meet the customers expectations?

How many times have you delivered a car that where the customer is only looking RIGHT WHERE the damage was? The quarter had a big dent when they dropped it off, and it was going to be replaced. They will walk up and look right where that dent was, and never look at the weld points, adjacent blend panels, nothing. You have to remember, if we wanted to we could pull the wool over their eyes and totally scam them. This is not their business after all.

Did the shop meet the customers expectations?

That is what it come down to. If the shop did a decent job of returning the cars "integrity" back to the pre-accident condition (THAT is the number one expectation of the customer) and it looks "resonably well" then they did their job.

These are the cold hard facts, the "industry standard" is based on the typical customers expectations, not on perfection.

This goes for restoration work as well, maybe even more. Your typical "restoration" shop does a piss poor job in my opinion. They are "painting" the car, and MILES from "restoring" it. Yet, people are dying to give them their money. Between the owner wanting to finally get his car back (it has been in the shop about a year after all) and just not giving a **** anymore, to the customer not knowing what to look for, the quality is less than what a good bodyman or painter would expect.

If you want to have the highest of quality work, go for it. But just don't pushed out of shape when you don't get a standing ovation as you walk into a room. Most customers, and employers really don't care.

Brian
Free lance adviser

"Hitting the pavement at 100 mph really smarts"
Evel Knievel



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:16 am
martinsr, i'd never thought of is that way before, now that i'm armed with this knowledge i'm going to deal with customers abit differently.

:lol: one painter hoses the car down with water, to make it look good before the customer come's to collect the car



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:02 am
Yes, I do take pride in my work. I don't expect a "standing ovation" when I walk in a room. I know most customers don't care. Owners prefer the wavy look because it's fast. Thats one of the problems with this industry. Speed over quality. You imply that quality techs are primadonnas of sorts because we try to do the best job possible. I don't know what you do, but you sound like an owner to me. Meeting a customers expectations is one thing. Thats easy to do. Doing the best job possible is another. Ever wonder why the auto body trade has such a bad image? The key in my opinion to improving this industry is through customer education. Mediocre repairs are NOT acceptable but they have become "industry standard". Shops who settle for good enough because the customer won't pick it out are doing a disservice to their customers. They're hacks plain and simple. If the paints wavy, it makes me think what else is wavy. How about that frame rail. Sure hope that air bag was hooked up right. The "industry standanrd" is a substandard repair that has been created by bully insurance companies. Techs need to make a living so they are bullied by shop owners to do these substandard repairs. Because the owners have no balls to get paid for what they do when they're on these illegal DRP's. And I do believe DRP's are illegal. Steering is illegal, and I can't imagine being on a DRP if work wasn't being steered to you. Anyone who believes that the low quality "industry standard" is all you need to do dosen't belong in my trade and they're part of the problem that we techs face.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:50 pm
Fume, you need to leave your emotions at the door if you want to have an intellectual conversation. :)
If I sounded like I think all people who want perfection are premodonas I am sorry. There are plenty who are however. Now, I will leave my emotions at that and just talk about my observations.

I am not an “owner” and for that matter I do not feel that the “owners” of body shops are the bad guys. We are all (every person who walks thru the gate at the shop) part of a team that restores cars back to preaccident condition for OUR customers.

I am a body tech at this time. I have also been a shop owner, painter and paint manufacturers rep. I have worked in “Maaco” style used car repair hack shops, I have done restoration work of the highest quality, custom work, and as today collision repair on year or two old $50,000 (or for that matter $100,000) luxury and sports cars.

“Quality” is such a subjective term anyway. One mans “high quality” work is another mans “hack work”. This brings up an interesting point. The government agency here in Californa that oversees auto shops is called the BAR, Bureau of Automotive Repair. Because of this fact that quality is subjective, they have no concern about it. They look for simple fraud, did the customer get everything they paid for, period. I have been involved with them in a few cases, no they were not investigating me. I helped in investigations of a few cars that were repaired at other shops. I was so surprised to hear that the quality wasn’t of their concern. We are talking REALLY bad quality, HOWEVER, it is subjective. If you asked the hack that did it, it was fine, it is after all JUST an opinion.

This is the most interesting point about this thread. What is “quality”? What is “wavy”? Your “wavy” may be my perfection, my “wavy” may be your best work, who knows looking at these words on a computer screen. It is THAT subjective.

That great wave free body work you see some guy do may also be covering up poor structure repair. Did the guy use proper welding to manufacturers model specific specifications and techniques? Did he over heat HHS and damage the integrity? Did he weld next to an ECU and damage it? Did he restore the corrosion protection and noise supression with cavity wax, seam sealers, expandable foams, etc? It goes beyond what you can see.


Insurance companies, the shop owner, DRP’s, NOTHING has an influence on these premodonas personal additudes and skills. These are three different guys, their work goes out the gate just like the other guys and mine as well. The owner can only do so much to be sure the HIS customer gets what he deserves.


My whole point is, if you are a perfectionist, you may really be only “anal”. How many times have you did some work that wasn’t as good as you would like yet people will tell you how wonderful it is. My brother is one of the most detailed perfectionist that I know of. His cars, Harleys, Boats, anything the puts a mind to, are absolutly stunning. I mean, there is NO car that can make his look bad. There are certainly equals and even ones that are better, but there are NONE that can make his look “bad” in comparison. So, I have to tell you, his “daily drivers” are actually like the “average” show car. No kidding, they are so well detailed that he could drive any one of them right into a car show and it would look at home. Be it his 55 F-100, his wifes “beater” 65 Mustang fastback. His 1922 Buick Roadster or her 57 Bird are out and out show winners. But most people don’t see the difference. The 55 F-100 is terribly disapointing in the body and paint dept. He had an old “friend” do it (a street rod shop) and it is HORRIBLE by our standards. But most everyone who looks at it just can’t believe he would drive it everyday and leave it out on the street in the rain. But to him it doesn’t even deserve to be called “show quality”.

The price may not have anything to do with why that guy down the street gets all the business. “People buy from People” and you may not be selling yourself. Not as an ace bodyman/painter but has a human being people want to buy from. You may be as nice as pie and that doesn't work either. That one I just don't get, there doesn't seem to be a pattern.

I have seen the same sort of thing you mentioned many times, it doesn’t always make sense. Some hack in town will be a “legend” in his own mind and profess himself as one, the next thing you know he IS a legend!

Marketing, it is all about marketing. MUCH more than quality, it is about marketing.

Brian
Free lance adviser

"Hitting the pavement at 100 mph really smarts"
Evel Knievel



No Turning Back
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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:09 pm
Location: pa
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:00 pm
My Teach in Vo tech always said Quote PT Barnum " Theres a sucker born every minute". Just thought id share that with you guys.



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Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:00 am
MARTINSR has a very strong point to which nobody can effectively dispute. I have two businesses and am just researching this industry to see if I want to start a third.

It's easy to say that you're comparing apples to apples in this discussion, but nothing's further from the truth. It may be the same industry, but they're totally different customers with a totally different mindset that each of you are marketing to.

If you're trying to attract customers who have custom rides then you would most definately want to take the extra time for a perfect job since they don't mind paying the extra money.

On the other hand, if Mrs. X wants some dings in her family car or dredid mini-van repaired. Or a quarter/door panel repaired/replaced so she doesn't look like a careless soccer mom with a license to kill; then obviously she isn't going to be as picky, and doesn't want to pay a couple hundred extra $$$ for block sanding.

The key to any business is figuring out your market and then attracting the customers who are going to be interested.
New to this but learning



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Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:07 pm
Location: pennsylvania
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:25 pm
You're right that the lady with the soccer van wouldn't want to pay anything extra for block sanding and the other little things that make a job quality.

Problem is most jobs coming through the body shop aren't dings that someone is getting fixed. It's collision damage that's getting fixed. These people are using their car insurance. When you don't charge for block sanding or go the cheap way out and use inferior parts from the aftermarket, you are not saving the customer money. You're saving the insurance company money. While the customer is paying the insurance company a premium to have their vehicle brought back to pre loss condition, the insurance company is paying the body shop a cut rate price to do whatever it takes to get the car back on the road.

These "bad body shops" enter into agreements with the insurance companies to have a steady stream of work illegally steered to their shop. The insurance companies then require the shop to make concessions in several ways in order to save them money. So how does the shop make the profit they need to make? That's easy, they cut corners. They don't block sand, they don't use weld thru primer, they don't follow proper paint procedures, they don't remove glass, they straighten frames that should be replaced, They clip cars with parts from junkyards. Wavy bodywork is one thing. That just means that the tech has no pride in what he does. He's just trying to get the job out the door. But what about the things that affect the safe use of the car? You'd like to think that these things the shops don't play around with. But you'd be wrong. These shops cut corners on that stuff also.

So yeah, there's talk that stuff like this is industry standard. Well that's a shame. And who defines industry standard anyway? Not the customers because they're not educated enough about the repair process to know the difference between a good and bad repair. I-car? Hardly, check out who's on their advisory board, insurance executives.

Most techs you run into can somehow explain away why doing work like this is ok. But it isn't. It never has been ok and it never will be ok. They either aren't really aware of what a good repair entails, or they know how to do it right and choose to take the fast way so their paycheck will be bigger. Either way, these techs have no business fixing cars for a living.
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