Hey guys/ladies I am looking to see what tips and tricks you all have for when the dreaded paint wrinkle occurs. I am not so much talking about from recoats but more when it happens from old paint. Ive run across this several times now when fixing old mobile painters bumper jobs/fenders doing work for dealerships. Im sure it has to do something with those parking lot painters using finger paint from Baby's R Us. I am curious on some tips and tricks to either prevent or what to do if it does happen other than torch the car in anger. (sorry if I offend any mobile painters I get you have to keep costs down dealing with dealers but I gotta poke!)

For example I was painting an audi q5 bumper/fender (dealer job) that was all checked out (cracked). I stripped what i could but it was clogging all my paper so some remained and I didnt want to get into the filler work. I primed over it all hoping to seal all the problems underneath it but once I started spraying it started lifting where the bumper/fender meets (maybe the primer was thin in that area?). I ended up baking it then priming over that area again and it fixed it but that messed up my schedule from dry times obviously. Now I know this could have been avoided if I stripped everything and started fresh but this is wholesale work so unfortunately it didnt pay enough.

Another related question even my paint rep couldnt answer. Why does it seem like lifting/wrinkle is more prone to happen on plastic vs metal? Something to do with curing process?

CrowleysAuto wrote:Hey guys/ladies I am looking to see what tips and tricks you all have for when the dreaded paint wrinkle occurs. I am not so much talking about from recoats but more when it happens from old paint. Ive run across this several times now when fixing old mobile painters bumper jobs/fenders doing work for dealerships. Im sure it has to do something with those parking lot painters using finger paint from Baby's R Us. I am curious on some tips and tricks to either prevent or what to do if it does happen other than torch the car in anger. (sorry if I offend any mobile painters I get you have to keep costs down dealing with dealers but I gotta poke!)

For example I was painting an audi q5 bumper/fender (dealer job) that was all checked out (cracked). I stripped what i could but it was clogging all my paper so some remained and I didnt want to get into the filler work. I primed over it all hoping to seal all the problems underneath it but once I started spraying it started lifting where the bumper/fender meets (maybe the primer was thin in that area?). I ended up baking it then priming over that area again and it fixed it but that messed up my schedule from dry times obviously. Now I know this could have been avoided if I stripped everything and started fresh but this is wholesale work so unfortunately it didnt pay enough.

do it right, you say there wasnt money on the job ? but you did it twice ? just spend a few minutes extra and be done with it the first time.

Another related question even my paint rep couldnt answer. Why does it seem like lifting/wrinkle is more prone to happen on plastic vs metal? Something to do with curing process? poor adhesion

1k waterborne primer works

but covering up the problem or looking for ways to cover it up aint good practice.


strip it and fix it

First up, the inevitable disclaimer. The following is based on my experience of more than 15 years doing paint and (generally) minor repairs. I run a business which originally started off doing mobile paint repair but soon moved into a workshop base. We have always done dealer work although, these days, it represents a much smaller percentage. We do almost anything from full resprays to brush touching chips and scratches.

What this does mean is that we get exposure to all kinds of situations, lots of reworks over other shops' poor quality jobs, fixing factory stuff ups (yes, they do happen) and, of course, plenty of fry ups which is how we refer to paint wrinkling or lifting.

OK, so now it's time to do some myth busting.

Here in Australia the majority of mobile paint repairers are part of a chain, running franchised operations. In most cases there are hundreds of franchisees and the group supports them with high quality products. They generally use PPG or Axalta (DuPont) products but some use other well known and respected brands. Why? Because the bigger manufacturers offer better colour support and colour matching becomes much more important when you're doing a small repair and don't have half a car to blend into. The operators are well trained and most are capable of doing a pretty much invisible SMART repair. I'll concede that some are better than others, but this is more a case of experience and is the case in any trade. We don't get many jobs to fix mobile repairers' work that is less than acceptable standard. What we do get is fairly regular work fixing jobs done by other shops who have cut corners to make money out of insurance work. Most commonly this is poor or complete lack of proper preparation, especially on plastics, evidenced by paint that can be blown off with air or even a garden hose.

Next myth buster is what causes fry ups. There is this fallacy that the primary cause is a substrate painted with acrylic lacquer. Not true. Fry ups most commonly occur in two situations. Firstly on the exposed edge of two pack primers, when that edge is feathered out. This is also referred to as edge mapping. Secondly, where the substrate is a thermoplastic resin based paint. There is a third instance which is when using a solvent based paint over an iso-free hardened substrate. The use of isocyanate-free hardened paints is relatively rare so this one does not occur often. In both the second and third cases the paint will wrinkle both at any exposed edge and wherever it has been applied heavy enough for solvent to remain in contact with the substrate.

How to deal with fry ups. If the substrate is thermoplastic resin (usually used on plastic components and seen most often on GM vehicles' door handles and mirror shells as well as older Korean built vehicles) then the solution is to either remove ALL the old paint or seal in with an epoxy sealer/primer. If the problem is edge mapping where solvent gets under the edge of a hardened primer then lay on multiple VERY light coats, allowing any solvent to evaporate very quickly. You can use 1K or 2K product for primer - both can cause edge mapping if laid on too wet initially and once a layer of well flashed primer exists subsequent coats can be applied a little wetter. An epoxy primer/sealer can also be used in these situations to isolate the substrate.

It is possible to create fry ups by using a solvent based basecoat over a 2K primer that is relatively fresh. This only happens when the basecoat is applied MUCH too wet. Adjust gun and/or spray technique.

If you get a fry up then the best thing is to stop and let that layer dry by flashing off any solvents. Gentle heat can be used but not intense heat which will cause the paint to skin and not allow solvent buried deeper to evaporate. Once dry enough rub back the wrinkles with P800 W&D, used dry. Remove dust and then reapply your paint, using very light coats to build up a layer that will protect the substrate from solvent attack. Alternately, use an isolator.

The use of high solid primers that contain low percentages of solvent or high quality basecoats that also have low reducer content will generally reduce the incidence of this problem, especially when combined with a light first coat and generous flash off times. I don't use water based products but I understand that it is not an issue with them.

In summary, identify your substrate and if suspect then isolate exposed edges or use multiple light coats, flashing off well. It isn't always necessary to strip the whole piece and it is true that we don't always get paid enough to do this, apart from the edge to edge colour matching issue.

PainterDave wrote:

CrowleysAuto wrote:Hey guys/ladies I am looking to see what tips and tricks you all have for when the dreaded paint wrinkle occurs. I am not so much talking about from recoats but more when it happens from old paint. Ive run across this several times now when fixing old mobile painters bumper jobs/fenders doing work for dealerships. Im sure it has to do something with those parking lot painters using finger paint from Baby's R Us. I am curious on some tips and tricks to either prevent or what to do if it does happen other than torch the car in anger. (sorry if I offend any mobile painters I get you have to keep costs down dealing with dealers but I gotta poke!)

For example I was painting an audi q5 bumper/fender (dealer job) that was all checked out (cracked). I stripped what i could but it was clogging all my paper so some remained and I didnt want to get into the filler work. I primed over it all hoping to seal all the problems underneath it but once I started spraying it started lifting where the bumper/fender meets (maybe the primer was thin in that area?). I ended up baking it then priming over that area again and it fixed it but that messed up my schedule from dry times obviously. Now I know this could have been avoided if I stripped everything and started fresh but this is wholesale work so unfortunately it didnt pay enough.

do it right, you say there wasnt money on the job ? but you did it twice ? just spend a few minutes extra and be done with it the first time.

Another related question even my paint rep couldnt answer. Why does it seem like lifting/wrinkle is more prone to happen on plastic vs metal? Something to do with curing process? poor adhesion

1k waterborne primer works

but covering up the problem or looking for ways to cover it up aint good practice.


strip it and fix it

if it doesn't pay enough don't do it.
Jay D.

NFT5 I couldn't have asked for a better response. I really appreciate that and the science behind whats happening. Sometimes I'll use a can of sem primer surfacer (basically 1k primer in a can) with decent results when situations like this occurs. Would it be worth investing in some waterbourne 1k? Never touched anything water based yet but is it something you can use with solvent base products? It would be nice to have a primer to use for bumper jobs like this that look potentially sketchy.

And ya I know in a perfect world you strip it or turn down the work but when a customer brings 20 cars a month for detail+any paint work sometimes you have to do the job. Now I will say in my defense that I only cut corners like this on small jobs like bumper blends, anything bigger I do it right. Even with jobs like this I know my work will still last for several years.

CrowleysAuto wrote:.......Would it be worth investing in some waterbourne 1k? Never touched anything water based yet but is it something you can use with solvent base products? It would be nice to have a primer to use for bumper jobs like this that look potentially sketchy.......

That's a good suggestion for the waterbourne primer. A while back I did some testing using waterbourne/waterbase paints, and never had a problem with incompatibility with solvent paints. Waterbournes do contain a small amount of solvents, but not enough to cause any frying. They take longer to flash and cure though.

Hi Guys, I am new to the site and trying to understand an issue that has developed on my car after a recent paint touch-up. And this "paint wrinkle" phenomenon might be what I have.

I'm trying to work out a solution with the paint shop and wanted to understand the problem. I am attaching a pic here. Might someone tell me if this is "wrinkling"?

Thanks,

Manny

PS. How do I upload an image?

welcome to the site; see my signature for instructions on photos.

best to start a new thread for a new topic/question.