Lead Seams

General Discussion. Make yourself at home...read, ask and answer!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:14 pm
Chevman, what about the newer leadless body solder? I've seen it advertised as a replacement for lead that is supposed to be just as good, but without the health hazard concerns. I wonder if it's really any good...???
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:34 am
Lead free solder takes a lot more heat, so I don't use it.
https://www.autobody101.com/content/art ... lder-lead/



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:11 am
Yes, lead free solder needs higher temps to melt, a smaller window of temp to work it, and it's a bit harder to file down that lead solder. I only use it when I am fixing parts that are to be chromed, because it IS harder.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:28 am
Doing some back reading on lead filler and thought I'd post a few pictures.

I used a hand held propane BBQ bottle torch to soften and brush away mine. I was surprised to discover what I discovered underneath. Sorry for the lack of order. Still trying to figure things out. Anyways, shows progression and discovery. Aside from thickness, was the volume of what I assumed was tinning flux trapped inside causing corrosion?

Reading the postings, attached link to a very good read, I'd also like to make a few remarks.
Controlling heat input is critical. Both in removal and application. With most gas flame temperatures well exceeding the points between solid and look at it run liquid, it's a narrow window to control. Anything melting above 820 degrees F is brazing alloy, so lead/tin based solders will depending on mix, be runny by 650 degrees F . So, around 450 the solid is starting to sweat/swell. 500 it's showing signs of deformation, 525 it's crushing easily, 550 it's melt and flow, 600 it's no longer building and sags, 625 it runs and falls. Numbers may change but that sums it up doesn't it?

Second thing is, tinning/fluxing serves as a visual clue to temperature. Slowly building a soft rise, is easier to control then rapid localized and sudden. The tinning/fluxing will start to work around 400 but if you then have to heat the bar you don't want the panel to over heat in the back ground. Or the other way around.

I said a few so last one. Interesting enough, this is a metallurical bond. Course surface creates surface for adhesion. So the tinning,fluxing of the surface while cleaning, is also providing a surface of liquid protection from further minor oxidation if the temperature is controlled. Also, a lubricant in aid in the flowing out of the body solder, if it's doing it's thing, as a temperature indicator, add the bar, control that temperature and your doing it.

If it was only that easy right? I have taking it off down to a science, putting it on I'm still practicing.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:03 am
noelc wrote:I said a few so last one. Interesting enough, this is a metallurical bond. Course surface creates surface for adhesion.

Actually, a smooth surface is good for lead, and you definitely don't want a rough surface.
I use a small stainless steel brush to apply the flux instead of an acid brush, to make sure the whole surface is tinned.

If you are determined to use lead, it will be much easier, and less likely to fail if you order this video.
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/vid_art_ ... tobody.php

If you decide to use bondo, it never hurts to see how (Chip Foose) the bondo expert does it.
Removing dents is best practice, of course, but he has to know a lot about bondo use.
https://www.familyhandyman.com/automoti ... /view-all/

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:17 pm
chevman wrote:
noelc wrote:I said a few so last one. Interesting enough, this is a metallurical bond. Course surface creates surface for adhesion.

Actually, a smooth surface is good for lead, and you definitely don't want a rough surface.
/


See, that's the welder in me talking. Not to disagree at all, but any abrasion to a surface will on some level leave ridges and valleys. Like a mountain rising up having more surface than a smooth plain, giving more for the product to grab a bit of so to speak. My choice of the word, course, may not have been the best choice. I'm not so sure how ever that smooth is much better? Depending on perspective, it could be the same?

"I like to use carbide abrasive to put a profile on it"

That was a very good write up by the way. I think we agree, but differ on how smooth course is or course smooth is maybe?

Would you agree a similar prepped surface as might be used for applying resin based body fillers or do you suggest a finer finish still to be used? I'm asking not to be difficult, but trying to understand the approach to doing and why? I once thought I would, and while I still might as nothing is set in stone, I'm going to stick with I doubt it but maybe.
Thanks Chevman!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:21 pm
Is that metal prepped for epoxy? I prep every little spot for epoxy, and put an 80 grit DA scratch on everything I can reach.

You can sand to prep for lead if you want to, but its not necessary, the important thing is that the metal has to be 100% clean.
Last edited by chevman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:36 pm
I tried to find some credible information on preparing the metal for flux.
Here is the best info I could find from Kent White (the tinman) on soldering two tank halves together without welding. Heat and flux provide the adhesion, I don't really know the chemistry of it, but I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with mechanical bonding.

Just think about plumbers cleaning copper pipe, then soldering them together, and those soldered pipes can be used for compressed air also.

http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.p ... light=lead

How to:

Solvent scrub the steel to bright.
Flux all of the mating surfaces (edges) and then heat with torch, activating the flux, and flow out the solder to "tin" the surfaces bright.
Wipe clean.
Assemble and heat and dab the solder to make your nice finished joints, using a continuous pass.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:05 am
chevman wrote:I tried to find some credible information on preparing the metal for flux.
Here is the best info I could find from Kent White (the tinman) on soldering two tank halves together without welding. Heat and flux provide the adhesion, I don't really know the chemistry of it, but I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with mechanical bonding.

Just think about plumbers cleaning copper pipe, then soldering them together, and those soldered pipes can be used for compressed air also.

http://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.p ... light=lead

How to:

Solvent scrub the steel to bright.
Flux all of the mating surfaces (edges) and then heat with torch, activating the flux, and flow out the solder to "tin" the surfaces bright.
Wipe clean.
Assemble and heat and dab the solder to make your nice finished joints, using a continuous pass.



I'm going to throw a link back at you bud.

https://www.brazingbook.com/the-6-steps ... g-process/

But I was wrong. 840 degrees F. Lol. To many numbers to remember.

Solders, brazing alloys, metallurgical bond . Fillers typically, chemical bond? That's way they always leaves a stain, particles imbedded in the surface. Here's one for you, same reason splatter sticks to an object. Hot enough to bond to the oxide layer. I'm sticking with that story I'm afraid Chevman.

https://www.brazingbook.com/brazing-vs-welding/

Solid to liquid and capillary action. Like melted solder flowing through a copper pipe joint that's been properly cleaned and fluxed, it will be filling as it's drawn threw the joint or flowing in and running away.
That bar of solder is just bigger. From a welders eye, it's a metal, has properties, best practices to apply and control. While I can see a bodyman way, I also see the welder way? But that's me.

I mentioned I'm thinking like a welder. Old habits are hard to break. I'm thinking I have one fender to waste trying it on one day. But as I've posted previous pictures of others, if it goes well, I'll be in business.
I'm not sure though if it would more or less forgiving to a lack of skill in working with and shaping in finishing? We'll see? I do have a couple of Vixon files, isn't that what they're called?

I do again appreciate your post on the subject and found it a valuable resource. I will as well think about the video purchase on your recommendation. A few simple tricks learned early could shorten the learning curve a lot.

But... I'm sure as a grown up from the lead based days, doubt I need more then the fillings in my mouth to make me any silly'er? Risk versus rewards. I don't need "yea I used lead" as a statement. Lol. Lots of products to replace it that's for sure.

When I got something to show going on in regards to leading, I'll let you know.
All the best.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:13 am
I really don't understand your argument. As I said before, heat and tinning butter or acid flux makes the bond, and the metal has to be 100% clean, and that can be done chemically or abrasively. I use acid, but you can sand it, and then all the sanding dust has to come off completely. This is the same as what the link you posted says.

Step 2: Cleaning the metals
Capillary action will work properly only when the surfaces of the metals are clean. If they are “contaminated”—coated with oil, grease, rust, scale or just plain dirt—those contaminants have to be removed. If they remain, they will form a barrier between the base metal surfaces and the brazing materials. An oily base metal, for example, will repel the flux, leaving bare spots that oxidize under heat and result in voids. Oil and grease will carbonize when heated, forming a film over which the filler metal will not flow. And brazing filler metal won’t bond to a rusty surface.
Cleaning the metal parts is seldom a complicated job, but it has to be done in the right sequence. Oil and grease should be removed first, because an acid pickle solution aimed to remove rust and scale won’t work on a greasy surface. (If you try to remove rust or scale by abrasive cleaning, before getting rid of the oil, you’ll wind up scrubbing the oil, as well as fine abrasive powder, more deeply into the surface.)
Start by getting rid of oil and grease. In most cases you can do it very easily either by dipping the parts into a suitable degreasing solvent, by vapor degreasing, or by alkaline or aqueous cleaning.
If the metal surfaces are coated with oxide or scale, you can remove those contaminants chemically or mechanically. For chemical removal, use an acid pickle treatment, making sure that the chemicals are compatible with the base metals being cleaned, and that no acid traces remain in crevices or blind holes. Mechanical removal calls for abrasive cleaning.
Particularly in repair brazing, where parts may be very dirty or heavily rusted, you can speed the cleaning process by using emery cloth, grinding wheel, or file or grit blast, followed by a rinsing operation.
Once the parts are thoroughly clean, it’s a good idea to flux and braze as soon as possible. That way, there’s the least chance for recontamination of surfaces by factory dust or body oils deposited

noelc, the temperatures you mention are way to hot for lead, and I wouldn't advice using lead free solder. Make sure your metal is smooth enough to flux, and weld any seams prior to solder. We can talk more after you have some practice experience.

Paint needs a scratch profile, lead just needs a clean substrate :bighug:
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