Lead Seams

General Discussion. Make yourself at home...read, ask and answer!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:22 pm
My friend Chevman. With all due respect, I admit I'm a novice when it comes to applying lead body filler. Forgive me if it appears I'm questioning your authority in this area because that's just not the case.
I would hope however you give considerations to what I'm offering for suggestion and information. I bring with me a different set of eyes with maybe different thoughts to the topic.
AWS says,

"THE SOLDERED JOINT is generally considered to be a metallurgical bond between the solder filler metal and the base metals being joined. Strength of the joint can be enhanced by mechanical configuration of the joint. Some solder joints do not have a metallurgical bond, but are held together by adhesion properties of the interfaces. The metallurgical solder joint is produced by reaction of the base metals and the filler metal. The solder alloy is applied as a liquid metal that wets and spreads in the joint, and generally forms a layer of an intermetallic compound with a small amount of the base metal. Upon solidification, the joint is held together by the same attraction between adjacent atoms that holds a piece of solid metal together.

I'm not saying your way is wrong, or mines right, or I know better. Having a conversation.
I see it as a surface to be built up in profile with lead?
In taking all the parts that encompass the application of lead solder for body filler and separating them, what they do, how they do it, and the reason why, what for, and to what degree they have an effect.
I'm trying to see what does that material hold for strength? Tensile, shear, elongation, expansion and contraction to temperature? As well filling abilities.

Getting past they did it this way back in the day when it was all that was available, it holds to reason that with the passing of time a better way exists then the old school way? Maybe not?
Doesn't mean you can't or it doesn't hold value to do so? Just why or why not.

http://files.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1976_10_s323.pdf


You know what makes interesting in my books. Trivia. Something small and useless for the most part but in a different context is always something greater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3UYZU9a_QQ

Thinking like a welder has advantages. Not saying right or wrong, different.
That steel is composed of different elements. Tinning flux is an acid that acts corrosively and dissolves surface oxides. Key word acid.
It also attacks the material surface on a microscopic level leaving it "cleaner" and more etched/ ruff.
Some elements are attacked easily, others less so, dependent by the aggressive nature of the acid used. Chemically creating an etching of ridges and valleys. Still looks smooth?
The degree of etch, in relation to the strength of acidic attack, effects the surface area exposed, which in turn effects the metallurgical bond strength of adhesion.

While the requirements to sand/grind the surface in preparation are subjective to it's condition, the need of flux acting on the surface will be more or less dependant on the oxide surface depth, or surface condition and it's need for cleaning.
A clean surface is required or adhesion and flow suffer, we agree on that.

Admittedly that strength may not be of big concern as a filler unless flexing and vibration are given consideration's.
Just as in applying resin fillers, more to grips the stronger it sticks? At some point, it will tear in itself, or let go from the surface. Weakest link that fails sort of thing?

My temperature points between solidus and liquidus were to impress the point of changes that occur, and need to control heat input. Not having specifics to the solder content, ratio of lead to tin, admittedly those numbers change. As you mentioned, probably lower.

What doesn't change is that all metals with few exception react the same way. Phase change from a solid to a liquid is similar across the board mostly. Bismuth and Antimony are two exceptions. The point of change occurs at different rates and temperatures but it can be controlled. That's why some welder welds look so good.

While mushing in and paddling out soft solder looks like fun, I'm not sure it's the end all way just because that's how they did it? Doesn't mean it doesn't work though?
But as you see in the video link, there could be a different approach to be taken?

That way to me looks easy... but I'm a welder?
I tend to go with what I find easy, able to control, and offering me a better chance at being successful?
As long as the end result is achievable and acceptable, fit for purpose and service, all should be good. If I found a different way to accomplish applying lead filler that gave the same results only easier to master from a different approach to the problem, wouldn't it be a "why didn't I think of that" moment? Buddy welding lead video suggest to me there could be a better way?

If you recall I mentioned Bismuth and Antimony. Most metals when heat expand. These bad boys don't they contract. They also are being used to some degree as alloys in the new lead free solder advancements, especially Antimony.
It's not worth mentioning but I'm going to anyways, fusible plugs top and bottom of an Acetylene cylinder are filled with an alloy. While it's usually referred to as a meltable alloy, fact is when heated to a point when most metals in changing through a cycle of phase expand, it's actually contracting. Then it melts.
But it's changing again from solid to liquid through temperature increase. It's all about controlling it.
Great discussion and conversation. Bringing about some degree of learning right? Me, you, adoring lurkers lol.
I look forward to my attempts, possible/probable failures and gained experiences. Your insight has been most valuable and will be thoughtfully applied. :goodpost:
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:09 pm
noelc wrote:I'm trying to see what does that material hold for strength? Tensile, shear, elongation, expansion and contraction to temperature? As well filling abilities.

Getting past they did it this way back in the day when it was all that was available, it holds to reason that with the passing of time a better way exists then the old school way? Maybe not?
Doesn't mean you can't or it doesn't hold value to do so? Just why or why not.

There is no question about lead being far superior to other fillers, in every way---that is after it is properly applied, and therein lies the reason it is hardly used any more. I mostly just use lead on edges.

As for a better way, that is shown in the video link I posted. Its two hours long and filled with great tips from the master.

Also be sure to take note of the first few lines in the article I wrote.

Working with Body Solder (Lead)
Author: chevman

Using lead is not for everyone and there are a lot of things that can go wrong and make you wish you had never tried it. But there is a lot of bad information on the internet and on YouTube so it makes sense to offer a better way of doing it for those who insist on using it. The important thing when doing body work is to get the metal as straight as possible and just use filler to finish it off. The polyester type body fillers are so good today that lead should only be considered in certain situations in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:12 am
chevman wrote:The polyester type body fillers are so good today that lead should only be considered in certain situations in my opinion.


100% in agreement. Pound for pound good advice. What, where or when would you think as a body man it would be that certain situation calling for it?

:flatten: While it seems I'm trying hard to beat the dead horse deader, I'm seriously asking for that opinion. Top picture is from the net, the one with the holes is mine. I'm looking to avoid excess metal work and on some level sculpting could be involved?
Lol. I'm guessing that much filler (red coupe pic) in lead would get pretty heavy? Stop a bullet or x rays maybe?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:10 am
That's some serious rust, do you have a place near by that can dip the car to remove rust?
If not, then it may be one that used wood inside, so maybe you have good access.

noelc wrote:
chevman wrote:The polyester type body fillers are so good today that lead should only be considered in certain situations in my opinion.


100% in agreement. Pound for pound good advice. What, where or when would you think as a body man it would be that certain situation calling for it?

The edge of a door panel, high crown areas, or small areas like sedan upper door posts. When you get away from the edge into a low crown area, the heat may shrink some of the panel ahead of the work area. In the direction that the torch is pointing.

You are a welder, so I think you should be spending this time on learning more about straightening metal, and plannishing welds, so you won't need much filler.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:22 am
I hear what your saying about practicing, couldn't agree more. I have actually and I'm improving. At some point however a fella has to decide, how much time and what's the reward.
Reminds me of a buddy who walked away from a truck cab on a 54 ford project. His body guy spent hours picking and filing that cab on his dollar. Shrinking high, dolling lows. Point being, the back of the cab hidden from view was a beautiful straight panel that contributed to a healthy bill my buddy couldn't afford. I've learned to pick and choose my battles more wisely.
But I'll also follow sound advice which yours has been. Thank you for such advice.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:14 pm
Looks like an ambitious project even for an experienced metal worker. I would suggest a lot of research and reading, then practice as if you are repairing parts for your car, and finally a more manageable project might make sense.

I have known many guys that did the same job for 30 or so years and never did get good at it, only good enough to be able to keep the job, some that didn't even understand the reason why their efforts actually work. So during your research I wouldn't judge advice solely on experience.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:25 pm
chevman wrote:Looks like an ambitious project even for an experienced metal worker. I would suggest a lot of research and reading, then practice as if you are repairing parts for your car, and finally a more manageable project might make sense.

I have known many guys that did the same job for 30 or so years and never did get good at it, only good enough to be able to keep the job, some that didn't even understand the reason why their efforts actually work. So during your research I wouldn't judge advice solely on experience.



A man with ambition know no limitations. As long as he has ambition, he'll keep learning. Something will get done eventually.
I take alot of pictures, you can probably tell by my inclusions in the post I make. I look back and think, yea, making progress. Getting better. If I did that again I'd do that differently?

This car is a 3 dressed up as a 9? Lol...Other then being old however I'm not believing it to be more then another car to practice on. While 7.5 works for me, a bit more effort and it will be a solid 8, 8.5. I'll cover up in filler to be a 9. In my eyes a coat of paint make 10.

But I discovered as I spend more time with a hammer and dolly I get better. And with more practice , doing some things twice, I'm able to do it a secong time quicker and faster, and better still. My garage anchor of a hot rod sees a greater benefit from the practice.
I'm pleased to say, a little effort paying attention, asking questions, listening to the advice given has proven beneficial to learning a long way. And it's saved me time, effort and a whole lot of money.
Your comments won't be wasted.
Regards.
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