[quote="NFT5"]:goodpost: Nailed it Dave.

I have the full Cromax range and often choose to use the economy basecoats simply because they save me money. Big cost difference between binders that are $400/tin vs $90. Sometimes I have to use an extra coat but, as you say, value shades are the key.

Range of formulae and variants are almost exactly the same for the 610 line as for the premium 6000 base and colours are exactly the same (in the same variant, of course). As with any of the big name manufacturers, there is no quality difference - just a different way of achieving the same end. Axalta support me with a lifetime warranty regardless of which base I use, so long as it's used in the Cromax system with compatible products.[/quote

NFT5 I’m starting to get the picture but I need a auto paint dictionary. Please tell me what are the formulae and variants you refer to, and what’s a binder if not an activator or is a binder just another way of saying activator? Thanks for this tutorial, I’m learning a LOT. Also is the value shade the amount of shade similarity between a sealer and base coat? Is a sealer helpful if the primer happens to be the same shade as the base? Thanks very much

PainterDave wrote:

Bustedwrench wrote:

PainterDave wrote:

'68 Coronet R/T wrote:Dave,
I agree the paint isn't always the problem but low grade paint, needing help (a full painting system like you and Chris have as pros) doesn't help a beginner trying to paint his car. That's all I was trying to say.

nope, the problem for beginners is, they use shop line without the knowledge of using a complete system, it does not perform as they expect, they toss that line away and move to the next line, repeat that 4 times and they're posting that this and that paint line suck, at that point they have passed up any opportunity to learn appropriate application making any paint line a success, Gunslinger, one of the factory Harley Davidson refinishers uses shopline and very successful, since they are painting it for production they do not need the color match tech of say Envirobase,

Also you mention "low grade paint needing help" that is not true, I spray Envirobase, Global, and DBC, and Delfleet, all top of the line paint, and they do require using the complete system, "value shades" its not needing help its the correct way to use paint.

Dave what is a complete system? Sealers in different shades, these help adjust color to a good match I've got a shop with lots of clean dry air, tach cloths, waterborne wax and grease remover, the right additives for the paint, proper mixing cups, a good gun, is that the kind of thing you mean?
What about "Appropriate application" I am thinking that is following the TD Sheet, and spraying not to thick or too dry, using the right flash times, proper and good quality primer, is that what you mean? yes sir sounds like your off to a good start,
What is "correct value shade"? You said "coverage can be one of the differences (between a quality or poor quality job) but can be corrected with the correct value shades" most colors these days use different shades of gray underneath now, this helps with coverage as well, most any paint line can have a 2 coat and drop coat coverage using the value shade system,

Thanks, This is my second paint job and I'm just trying to figure out what I can do with this Omni paint because it's a great color match and it's single stage. I see so much of the repainted clears coming off from so many cars. I've got two 90's cars that have spent most of their lives out in the weather with paint that looks really great, that appear to have no clear coat, and would like to get the same kind of quality. I read that most of the 80's cars had single stage urethane factory paint jobs but it didn't mention the 90's. My 97 Rav4 and 94 Toyota pickup both have factory jobs without clears that look great, if very slightly faded.
I'm not averse to ditching the Omni and getting something better even if it means using a new color.

Omni is fine, add 5% hardener in any basecoat, whatever hardener you use in clear will work,

THANKS Dave, I’m getting there. Please just define a couple more things. When you say “....use gray underneath” are you talking about a gray sealer? And “...two coats and a drop coat”, Is that two base coats with a third base coat? Never heard of a drop coat.
Also, is the hardener for improving the adhesion? I thought I read somewhere that a hardener increases adhesion to the primer, in my case a good epoxy gray primer. The store said they put hardener in that Omni and that all I needed to add was activator and reducer, 4:1:1. Thanks again

Bustedwrench wrote:

PainterDave wrote:

Bustedwrench wrote:

PainterDave wrote:

'68 Coronet R/T wrote:Dave,
I agree the paint isn't always the problem but low grade paint, needing help (a full painting system like you and Chris have as pros) doesn't help a beginner trying to paint his car. That's all I was trying to say.

nope, the problem for beginners is, they use shop line without the knowledge of using a complete system, it does not perform as they expect, they toss that line away and move to the next line, repeat that 4 times and they're posting that this and that paint line suck, at that point they have passed up any opportunity to learn appropriate application making any paint line a success, Gunslinger, one of the factory Harley Davidson refinishers uses shopline and very successful, since they are painting it for production they do not need the color match tech of say Envirobase,

Also you mention "low grade paint needing help" that is not true, I spray Envirobase, Global, and DBC, and Delfleet, all top of the line paint, and they do require using the complete system, "value shades" its not needing help its the correct way to use paint.

Dave what is a complete system? Sealers in different shades, these help adjust color to a good match I've got a shop with lots of clean dry air, tach cloths, waterborne wax and grease remover, the right additives for the paint, proper mixing cups, a good gun, is that the kind of thing you mean?
What about "Appropriate application" I am thinking that is following the TD Sheet, and spraying not to thick or too dry, using the right flash times, proper and good quality primer, is that what you mean? yes sir sounds like your off to a good start,
What is "correct value shade"? You said "coverage can be one of the differences (between a quality or poor quality job) but can be corrected with the correct value shades" most colors these days use different shades of gray underneath now, this helps with coverage as well, most any paint line can have a 2 coat and drop coat coverage using the value shade system,

Thanks, This is my second paint job and I'm just trying to figure out what I can do with this Omni paint because it's a great color match and it's single stage. I see so much of the repainted clears coming off from so many cars. I've got two 90's cars that have spent most of their lives out in the weather with paint that looks really great, that appear to have no clear coat, and would like to get the same kind of quality. I read that most of the 80's cars had single stage urethane factory paint jobs but it didn't mention the 90's. My 97 Rav4 and 94 Toyota pickup both have factory jobs without clears that look great, if very slightly faded.
I'm not averse to ditching the Omni and getting something better even if it means using a new color.

Omni is fine, add 5% hardener in any basecoat, whatever hardener you use in clear will work,

THANKS Dave, I’m getting there. Please just define a couple more things. When you say “....use gray underneath” are you talking about a gray sealer? Correct, gray shades using black gray and white sealer, you can look up ppg value shades for more info And “...two coats and a drop coat”, Is that two base coats with a third base coat? Never heard of a drop coat. yep a drop coat is a light third coat for metallics, i drop coat my clear as well but dont try that just yet
Also, is the hardener for improving the adhesion? I thought I read somewhere that a hardener increases adhesion to the primer, in my case a good epoxy gray primer. The store said they put hardener in that Omni and that all I needed to add was activator and reducer, 4:1:1. Thanks again

the best practice for hardening basecoat is also to use a complete system, urethane sealer, hardened basecoat, clear, this will allow all three layers together creating a stong finished paint job, a lot of guys wet sand primer and go directly to basecoat, this works as well but it will never have the strength of the complete system.

[quote="NFT5"]:goodpost: Nailed it Dave.

I have the full Cromax range and often choose to use the economy basecoats simply because they save me money. Big cost difference between binders that are $400/tin vs $90. Sometimes I have to use an extra coat but, as you say, value shades are the key.

Range of formulae and variants are almost exactly the same for the 610 line as for the premium 6000 base and colours are exactly the same (in the same variant, of course). As with any of the big name manufacturers, there is no quality difference - just a different way of achieving the same end. Axalta support me with a lifetime warranty regardless of which base I use, so long as it's used in the Cromax system with compatible products.[/quote

Isn’t Cromax itself a base, why would you want to use it with another base when it’s big selling point is not having any flash time? Do you put the cheap base between the primer and the Cromax so the Cromax takes the weather?

PainterDave wrote:

Bustedwrench wrote:

PainterDave wrote:

Bustedwrench wrote:

PainterDave wrote:

'68 Coronet R/T wrote:Dave,
I agree the paint isn't always the problem but low grade paint, needing help (a full painting system like you and Chris have as pros) doesn't help a beginner trying to paint his car. That's all I was trying to say.

nope, the problem for beginners is, they use shop line without the knowledge of using a complete system, it does not perform as they expect, they toss that line away and move to the next line, repeat that 4 times and they're posting that this and that paint line suck, at that point they have passed up any opportunity to learn appropriate application making any paint line a success, Gunslinger, one of the factory Harley Davidson refinishers uses shopline and very successful, since they are painting it for production they do not need the color match tech of say Envirobase,

Also you mention "low grade paint needing help" that is not true, I spray Envirobase, Global, and DBC, and Delfleet, all top of the line paint, and they do require using the complete system, "value shades" its not needing help its the correct way to use paint.

Dave what is a complete system? Sealers in different shades, these help adjust color to a good match I've got a shop with lots of clean dry air, tach cloths, waterborne wax and grease remover, the right additives for the paint, proper mixing cups, a good gun, is that the kind of thing you mean?
What about "Appropriate application" I am thinking that is following the TD Sheet, and spraying not to thick or too dry, using the right flash times, proper and good quality primer, is that what you mean? yes sir sounds like your off to a good start,
What is "correct value shade"? You said "coverage can be one of the differences (between a quality or poor quality job) but can be corrected with the correct value shades" most colors these days use different shades of gray underneath now, this helps with coverage as well, most any paint line can have a 2 coat and drop coat coverage using the value shade system,

Thanks, This is my second paint job and I'm just trying to figure out what I can do with this Omni paint because it's a great color match and it's single stage. I see so much of the repainted clears coming off from so many cars. I've got two 90's cars that have spent most of their lives out in the weather with paint that looks really great, that appear to have no clear coat, and would like to get the same kind of quality. I read that most of the 80's cars had single stage urethane factory paint jobs but it didn't mention the 90's. My 97 Rav4 and 94 Toyota pickup both have factory jobs without clears that look great, if very slightly faded.
I'm not averse to ditching the Omni and getting something better even if it means using a new color.

Omni is fine, add 5% hardener in any basecoat, whatever hardener you use in clear will work,

THANKS Dave, I’m getting there. Please just define a couple more things. When you say “....use gray underneath” are you talking about a gray sealer? Correct, gray shades using black gray and white sealer, you can look up ppg value shades for more info And “...two coats and a drop coat”, Is that two base coats with a third base coat? Never heard of a drop coat. yep a drop coat is a light third coat for metallics, i drop coat my clear as well but dont try that just yet
Also, is the hardener for improving the adhesion? I thought I read somewhere that a hardener increases adhesion to the primer, in my case a good epoxy gray primer. The store said they put hardener in that Omni and that all I needed to add was activator and reducer, 4:1:1. Thanks again

the best practice for hardening basecoat is also to use a complete system, urethane sealer, hardened basecoat, clear, this will allow all three layers together creating a stong finished paint job, a lot of guys wet sand primer and go directly to basecoat, this works as well but it will never have the strength of the complete system.

Thanks Dave you’re a goldmine. This Omni I bought is SS, and I know I can put clear over it and I know if it’s done right it’ll last a long time. But I’m trying to figure out a good SS system. I’m using a high grade epoxy primer over all bare metal. I just read that Cromax is a SS, but I’m not buying a whole system at this point. I’m looking for durability like my 90s trucks have and I haven’t seen any reason why I should trust the Omni SS I have without a clear coat over it. Yeah I’m stubborn about not liking clear coat.

No, Cromax is a complete system. There are about 90 colour tinters, which are concentrated, for colours, metallics and pearls. These are mixed with different binders to make the different kinds of paint. So, for example, I'd use a red tinter (or combination of reds, magentas, blacks and whites) to make a solid red and then mix that with one binder to make 6000 premium base, another binder to make 600 line base or a different binder to make the 610 economy line. There are also binders to make acrylic lacquer and single stage direct gloss (in different quality levels) plus binders for plastic paint and then more to change the gloss level.

The difference between the base coats is, apart from the binders, that there is less tinter in the economy lines, but the colours are the same. There is also much less thinner in the 6000 base but even the 610 base only uses 0.8 parts thinner to base, so still good colour density compared to cheaper paints. Coverage for solids is almost the same but colours like red pearls, which are notorious for poor hiding, can need an extra coat in the economy lines. This can actually work to my advantage if I'm blending on a repair, since the lower strength base blends easier.

6000 base covers in 1.5 coats, the 600 base in 2 coats and the 610 base in 2-3 coats. I could use different bases on the same job, but it's pointless and just adds work. I have, though, used one base for a ground coat and a different one for the final colour, but usually only in the cases where there is no formula for the base that I wanted to use or there are colour matching issues. You can also use the colour formula for one base and then the binder for another, since proportions are generally the same.

The shorter flash times for 6000 base can be important depending on the jobs you're doing, but this time saving is offset by the higher cost.

Also, as part of the system, there are a complete range of epoxies, primers, sealers and clears. Plus, there are various thinners, reducers and special purpose products. Another plus is compatibility with most, not all, other Axalta paint systems. So, if I wanted to, I could use a Standox clear or a Metalux primer.

So, all in all, a very versatile system which keeps my inventory cost down and saves lots of space - things which are important in a small shop.

Regardless of which combination I use there is absolutely no difference in performance of the different base coats and single stage topcoats. Clears, of course, do vary, on gloss levels and hardness, but still perform well, even the cheaper ones. That said, although compatible and much cheaper, I don't use the Duxone clears any more. They're fine for car dealer jobs where there is no warranty but have a limited life in harsh conditions so, for private work, I stick to the premium clears. The 510 line single stage I use exclusively and it is excellent. As good as the PPG 2K, maybe better. Cars I did in this 15 years ago still look as good as the day I painted them. Nice to use, too.

There is also a Cromax waterborne line, but that uses different tinters to the solvent ones that I use.

As Dave says, I/we have the advantage of a full, compatible system but that doesn't mean that the hobby guys are at a real disadvantage if they buy products in a single system from a distributor. Just buy the products you need and save the $30K investment I have in the system.

Thanks Chris, (I’m not quoting any more until I can figure how to do it without bringing half the thread with it.).
I thought you meant a while back, that you were using Any base with your Cromax systems.
Now when you say you’d put your Cromax 510 Single Stage on par with PPG 2 K,
That PPG 2K includes Single Stage Omni ?
My Omni is two part which is all 2K means, right?

I would have (due to remarks I had no way of verifying which slandered Omni) cslled up Tamco first. But was under the impression I couldn’t get a color match without doing it in person. As of a month ago the only color Tamco matches is OEM due to being overloaded. So I was told today.

In any case I’m still interested in learning more about Omni before I do anything.

Hmmm. A little confusion maybe.

PPG in Australia developed a line of basecoat called Cobra and the 'single stage' or direct gloss to go with it was called "2K". For many years it was the preferred direct gloss and, in Australia, the name "2K" has become generic so we say "2K" meaning what you call "single stage".

Both Cobra and 2K are gone now, replaced by Deltron and something else in their global system (lost track since not using PPG any more). I don't know if Omni is the same as 2K, probably not, and it's never been sold here anyway. What I do know is that I used to use 2K and now use Cromax 510 and just as happy with it. I'm sure that Dave can chime in with more up to date and localised knowledge of PPG products.

One thing I'd suggest is not to get too hung up on price. While the comparitive difference appears large (in percentage terms) the absolute difference, in dollars, isn't that great when you consider the hours of time and effort that most people put into their project. If you've spent 100, 200 or 300 hours on that car another few hundred dollars really is small in the big picture.

To quote part of a previous post, hit the Reply button to start your reply then scroll to the post you want to quote and highlight the text you want. Click on Quote and it will be transferred to the reply box.

Thanks for that Chris, I'll try it.
And thanks for the PPG info. I'm not worried at all about price, I didn't even ask for the Omni. I asked for PPG because it was so highly recommended, THEN found out they had mixed me the low cost PPG (Omni) saying it was all they had for single stage and color match.
Dave says not to worry about Omni, just make sure I have a good shade match underneath it, and add 5% hardener to it. I'm almost ready to go that route. But I've put a lot of work into the whole body and I want the paint I put on it to last so been reading other threads about the pros and cons of acrylic enamel and urethane and have concluded that the single stage urethane would work differently but as well for me as the acrylic enamel. Just looking for more experienced opinion on the Omni now, I guess

A lot of Omni and Shopline is running around on cars near me. Because of budgets the youth crowd seems to like it on their imports. Only times I've seen out and out failure was usually related to poor prep. And, I'd take a single stage urethane over an enamel anytime......