Hi-

New to these forums and autobody in general. Have been researching for a few months on how to approach re-painting my 2010 Infiniti G37 Sport. Has some minor body dings that need to be fixed, but that will be done with detail as I've heard the mantra that prep is the most important part of the painting work.

After much research on cost considerations, application methodologies, etc. I decided to pull the trigger on the 3 stage Sprayfine system. After talk a few time to Phil he suggested that the A3 was more than enough and that the 4 stage would be overkill for me. Keep in mind, I will only be painting my car now and maybe in the future, but that it's a daily driver in the NJ/NYC area and I drive A LOT. For me, performance matters more than show car quality and where most of my efforts go (shade tree DIY mechanic). For this reason and ability to complete in my garage, is why I went turbine.

Initially I thought I would be going BC/CC 2K, but I heard that black is best with single stage. Also love the fact that it's cheaper and less variables for me to have to figure out since it seems manufacturer suggestions don't really apply to turbine systems. As someone who has never shot paint onto a car I am looking to mitigate as many risks as possible.

Can single stage black be used with the turbine effectively? I was also going to throw a CC on top of the single stage for what ive been told adds depth.

Sorry to clog up this forum with this query, but I wasn't able to PM the turbine guru on this board so I had no other choice. Sooooo many questions that I just cannot find on forums anywhere.

Thanks ahead for the time.

Best
Jon

Turbine spraying... well, so you don't have much background in spraying anything, right? That may actually help you in some ways as you don't have any preconceived ideas of how thing should/will turn out.
Okay, sorting out a few things. Automotive urethanes are getting higher in solids content just about all the time. A little surprised you were told a 3 stage is what is needed for auto paints. I recommend nothing under a 4 stage and prefer to see guys using 5 and 6 stage systems. A 3 stage has a 6.5 psi cap pressure while a 4 stage is about 8 psi. And obviously 5 and 6 stage units head out to max recommended cap pressures. So, can you get decent spray quality out of a 3 stage, well, yes, but you probably should be using either a little lower solids urethane or simply using matching reducers to increase flow and using the slowest temp. range of hardeners and reducers.
You got some confusing information there with the single stage and the bc/cc thing. Just my personal opinion but bc/cc is a lot easier to adjust/correct than single stage. A novice shooter with a turbine using a single stage product will almost always have to do a cut and buff on it especially with that 3 stage. If you do base/clear you might be able to get an acceptable level of factory like orange peel just by picking the right clear (lower solids) and that might reduce or eliminate the need for much of a cut/buff on the car. Trust me, if you've never really sprayed before wait till you find out how complicated the skills of cut/buff work is, especially with black.... And please notice something you just said there....."I was also going to throw a CC on top of the single stage for what ive been told adds depth." Uhhh....you just made your single stage job into a rudimentary base/clear system.
Bottom line....you need to get some hoods, fenders, etc., and start dialing your paint system in before you even get near a car. It's going to take some experimentation to get results that your are satisfied with.....

i know nothing about the turbine spraying systems but i have sprayed a lot of black. I've done dozens of cars and other things with S/S urathane and it was my preferred product for black. it buffs good and i always cut and buff black. thats a hole new learning processes. i think the only thing your going add by putting clear on over the S/S is a dent in your bank account. if i were to paint black now it will be B/C the colors are much better now, but probably depends on what brand you use. try 1953 Plymouth black. i don't have the color code off the top of my head but i can look it up for you if you want.
Jay D.

Personally, I like single stage black on older cars but the cut and buff really has to be good. You get a lot of halos, ghosting, etc., if it's not done just right. I just think the learning curve with the turbine system and combining that with the black might make for a lot of frustration.

DarrelK wrote:Turbine spraying... well, so you don't have much background in spraying anything, right? That may actually help you in some ways as you don't have any preconceived ideas of how thing should/will turn out.
Okay, sorting out a few things. Automotive urethanes are getting higher in solids content just about all the time. A little surprised you were told a 3 stage is what is needed for auto paints. I recommend nothing under a 4 stage and prefer to see guys using 5 and 6 stage systems. A 3 stage has a 6.5 psi cap pressure while a 4 stage is about 8 psi. And obviously 5 and 6 stage units head out to max recommended cap pressures. So, can you get decent spray quality out of a 3 stage, well, yes, but you probably should be using either a little lower solids urethane or simply using matching reducers to increase flow and using the slowest temp. range of hardeners and reducers.
You got some confusing information there with the single stage and the bc/cc thing. Just my personal opinion but bc/cc is a lot easier to adjust/correct than single stage. A novice shooter with a turbine using a single stage product will almost always have to do a cut and buff on it especially with that 3 stage. If you do base/clear you might be able to get an acceptable level of factory like orange peel just by picking the right clear (lower solids) and that might reduce or eliminate the need for much of a cut/buff on the car. Trust me, if you've never really sprayed before wait till you find out how complicated the skills of cut/buff work is, especially with black.... And please notice something you just said there....."I was also going to throw a CC on top of the single stage for what ive been told adds depth." Uhhh....you just made your single stage job into a rudimentary base/clear system.
Bottom line....you need to get some hoods, fenders, etc., and start dialing your paint system in before you even get near a car. It's going to take some experimentation to get results that your are satisfied with.....

I did ask Phil about why the 3 stage has far higher CFM than the 4 stage and why he didn't recommend the 4 stage for me. He said because the added heat is not worth it for what I wanted. Of course I likely stressed that I wanted to mitigate costs on a piece of equipment I am likely never to use again except, come to find out, spray tanning my GF. LOL Obviously some around the house stuff, but nothing significant unless I repaint one of our cars.

As far as the single stage I knew I had more in-process correction opportunities with the bc/cc, but I thought ease of applying multiple coats of one paint instead of two along with far less cost would even out. Is a pro cut and buff expensive?

As far as practicing I am replacing my front fascia with another so I can practice on it. Does it need to be prepped before practicing to get an accurate picture on what it will be like shooting onto the car?

Phil did provide me a 1 page instructional on preventing orange peel. He says I should use slowest activators and reducers and add 50% more than what the manufacturer recommends. He says he prefers his paint runny like 11 sec viscosity, but said I can go up to 20sec. He also says always add a capful of surface tensioner modifier to the urethane, Multiple light passes vertically and horizontally to prevent zebra stripping and runs. Is there a good viscosity for equipment being used, a technician preference or is it for preferable behavior of the paints?

Can you tell me how much coverage I should get with turbine as I am trying to determine how much paint I will need for my car? Phil said he gets about 50 sq/ft per qt but he didn't clarify if that includes all coats of paint or each application. Is there a known source for the avg surface sq footage of a mid size coupe?

Thank you for the feedback

badsix wrote::goodpost: i know nothing about the turbine spraying systems but i have sprayed a lot of black. I've done dozens of cars and other things with S/S urathane and it was my preferred product for black. it buffs good and i always cut and buff black. thats a hole new learning processes. i think the only thing your going add by putting clear on over the S/S is a dent in your bank account. if i were to paint black now it will be B/C the colors are much better now, but probably depends on what brand you use. try 1953 Plymouth black. i don't have the color code off the top of my head but i can look it up for you if you want.
Jay D.

Your offer actually addresses another question I had. My car has some rock chips and dings all around so I will be repainting the whole thing even though I still have very good clear and color. If I am repairing the small damage all around and taking down the CC to paint over the OEM paint, problems shouldn't occur due to the OEM black paint color right? If not then I was actually going to go with the TAMCO single stage black, but now that might change. Was going to initially do a TAMCO basecoat black with an Ess Pee Eye clear since the costs and less waste of material was better.

If you can recommend some paint brands that are reasonable since I'm not looking for show car finish and I will get crazy rocks chips with the locations, amounts and speeds I drive at, it would be greatly appreciated.

So the thinking was a little flawed in buying your equipment. Used turbine systems especially the 4 and 5 stage units are pretty easy to resell once you don't think you are going to be using them again. My observations with these systems over the years is that once a certain amount of CFM production has been reached then the next thing that helps with auto paints is cap pressure. For each stage you add to a turbine motor you gain roughly 2 more psi. Heat is easy to manage with a few ice packs near your intakes or using a 5 gallon bucket to make a "hose cooler." Heck, Phil even sells one of those....

A pro cut and buff will not be cheap....One guy near me charges a flat $1000 on smaller cars and goes out to more like $2500 to $3000 on show work.

If you really want to learn how to shoot with your system prep, that fascia just like you would for your car. How good your prep, is will also be a determining factor in your overall results.

Phil's advice for the materials is generally accurate however I would not want my paint "runny" by any means. It needs to stick, cling, and flow. And, who's surface tension modifier is he talking about here? Those are most used in the formulation/production stages of paints. You should be adjusting viscosity with a viscosity cup and following his seconds range. As far as coverage goes it just depends it is more variable depending on that final viscosity, your gun technique, etc. There are guidelines for "regular" spray equipment however turbines are more efficient (well, at least if they are dialed in right) and should use 10 to 20% less.

Okay, paint....do yourself a big favor here and stay in ONE brand system. Tamco is easy and their tech. support is good (not perfect). If you go between 2 different brands it's very simple for each company to "pass the buck" with tech. because they aren't obligated to solve your "hybrid" problems. He said, you said, their stuff is crap, their stuff turned my stuff into crap, and on and on....SEE? Several of us have used Tamco here on overall projects and know how it works. Here is my project from last year.... all Tamco products from primer to topcoats, all turbine work from 4 stage to 6 stage units with Phil's Sprayfine guns....
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27971&start=0

DarrelK wrote:So the thinking was a little flawed in buying your equipment. Used turbine systems especially the 4 and 5 stage units are pretty easy to resell once you don't think you are going to be using them again. My observations with these systems over the years is that once a certain amount of CFM production has been reached then the next thing that helps with auto paints is cap pressure. For each stage you add to a turbine motor you gain roughly 2 more psi. Heat is easy to manage with a few ice packs near your intakes or using a 5 gallon bucket to make a "hose cooler." Heck, Phil even sells one of those....

A pro cut and buff will not be cheap....One guy near me charges a flat $1000 on smaller cars and goes out to more like $2500 to $3000 on show work.

If you really want to learn how to shoot with your system prep, that fascia just like you would for your car. How good your prep, is will also be a determining factor in your overall results.

Phil's advice for the materials is generally accurate however I would not want my paint "runny" by any means. It needs to stick, cling, and flow. And, who's surface tension modifier is he talking about here? Those are most used in the formulation/production stages of paints. You should be adjusting viscosity with a viscosity cup and following his seconds range. As far as coverage goes it just depends it is more variable depending on that final viscosity, your gun technique, etc. There are guidelines for "regular" spray equipment however turbines are more efficient (well, at least if they are dialed in right) and should use 10 to 20% less.

Okay, paint....do yourself a big favor here and stay in ONE brand system. Tamco is easy and their tech. support is good (not perfect). If you go between 2 different brands it's very simple for each company to "pass the buck" with tech. because they aren't obligated to solve your "hybrid" problems. He said, you said, their stuff is crap, their stuff turned my stuff into crap, and on and on....SEE? Several of us have used Tamco here on overall projects and know how it works. Here is my project from last year.... all Tamco products from primer to topcoats, all turbine work from 4 stage to 6 stage units with Phil's Sprayfine guns....
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27971&start=0

Thanks for the turbine info. I read many of your posts about it and figured I might be underdoing it, but there is no turning back now so let's see what we get.

I decided to take your advice on going the bc/cc way. Phil and some others I spoke with the units said they get about 50sq/ft per qt and I calculate I need about 150 sq/ft so looking to find a good paint that mixes 1:1 so I can get 2 quarts of base and not have another half gallon not used. Not sure if there are clears from those manufacturers that are also 1:1, but I'm looking as to not waste on materials. Not sure if I asked already, but 1.3 tip on that Sprayfine gun should be good for bc/cc right?

Calling some local suppliers and see what they can offer for my intended price range and application. Trying to stay away from big brands and their economy line of paints.

Go to the Tamco web site and look up their Jet Black Basecoat. It is a good product at great pricing. I've been doing the minor things I have been building with that as my base for my color changing pearls. And while you are there....look up the 1100 clear. That clear will work with very little modding in your 3 stage system. I now stock it myself for some of our shop metal projects. It is a 35% solids which will work better with 3 and 4 stage systems. I'd consider it a better product than say a PPG Shopline or Omni clear. The 1.3 tip should work fine. I would think most anything you would shop local would be more money/less quality than the Tamco stuff. If you order through Chris here I think you still get free ship and no tax. Tamco stuff hits me in about 2 to 3 days.

Ordered the clear and basecoat. Thanks for the advice as that was the cheapest bundle I came across and i wanted to go with Tamco of that other brand that can't be mentioned it seems. Hard to know what level of quality is acceptable when I have no experience to reference from.

FYI, I took some advice and picked up some water-based craft paint to practice on some wall sheeting just to get a feel for the gun and adjustments. I was also advised to use water and practice painting the car just to get a mental idea of how I will approach, distance, speed, etc. I figured I would do this for a bit and prep the front fascia for some practice work then onto the car.

Couple of questions if you don't mind:

Do I somehow need to mix separate paint for the front and rear fascias so as to add some type of flexing agent? If so then I assume I will need to shoot them separately on a stand, which i was planning to do anyway.

Also, my car has good cc all over and filling work is a little but on many panels. How much of the cc needs to be taken down to lay the base down? Do you have to break through to the OEM paint or just scuff the clear in areas where there is no damage?