Clear Coat Over Single Stage

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:49 pm
Has anyone seen any advantage to make a paint job look a little deeper using single stage black vs base coat black. If I put 3 coats of clear on each would the single stage with hardener in it look deeper or better? I have also heard of people adding some hardener to base coat but does that get any improvement? Thanks for your experience.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:39 am
This subject has been raised many times, but particularly recently and has prompted me to some thinking...

The apparent logic behind the question seems to be that if you have shiny black 2K or single stage then adding more coats of shinyness (i.e. clear) over the top will make it even shinier / gloss deeper / all kinds of other wondrous things. Shiny black 2K has to be better than base coat. Doesn't it?

Then I thought "Geez, I've been painting for all these years, done literally thousands of cars. How come I've never done this, or even thought of it?"

Well, the answer is that, somewhere deep down I knew that it probably wouldn't work. Why? Because the basis on which the idea is founded is false. Base coat is dull when flashed off and 2K is shiny. But to put clear over 2K you can't just paint over the shinyness. You have to wait until it dries and sand it back first (unless you think you're good enough to lay down 5 coats of urethane without giving yourself another 3 years work taking out the runs). Therefore, once sanded, it's not shiny, it's dull, just like basecoat. So where's the advantage? Straight black base is generally fairly cheap. You can even put a little hardener in it to improve chip resistance - doesn't change the gloss level though because it's only about 5%.

The best gloss levels I've ever seen come from premium clears. It's obvious from the moment you lay it down and then really stands out once dry, even without wetsanding and buffing. Three coats of clear is good, but does run the risk of runs. It does leave more there after sanding and buffing though and that certainly helps with protecting the gloss level over time.

Time. Generally clear over base will hold its shine better than 2K, mainly because the colour doesn't oxidise out and go dull. That said, better quality paint again makes a big difference to how well even a 2K paint holds up against the sun and fading. The one advantage that 2K has is that, provided it hasn't been already buffed to transparency, it can usually be brought back with a good buff and polish. BC/CC systems suffer from clear coat delamination (again depends on quality of paint and application), sometimes within a few years.

An example. I have a car I'm working on at the moment. 15 years old, solid red, painted in 2K in the factory. But, at some stage the front end had some damage and was redone in BC/CC. The clear is coming off in sheets, but the original 2K on the rest of the car is actually not too bad.

So, would I bother putting clear over 2K? Nope. Better to use a quality clear over base.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:52 am
Well, I've got to disagree, sort of. I've done several custom black paint jobs, following advice I got from House of Kolor founder, Jon Kosmoski. I lay down a coat or 2 of straight black (single stage), enough for coverage. Then 2-3 coats of that black mixed 50-50 with clear. You can either go over it with straight clear here, or maybe put on another coat of 50-50, so you have room for sanding and buffing. The HOK paints use the same reducers, and clears, so wet-on-wet painting makes them all one solid film of paint. Using other brands, might be tricky.
The end result, looks like black lacquer. The additional clear mixed in gives more depth to the paint. NOT shininess, but depth. The difference between a piece of shiny, black, opaque plastic, and a piece of black glass. A lesser version of the difference between a nice red BC/CC job, and a real Candy Apple Red job (3 stage).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:35 am
I always use base/clear on my collision repair jobs, it looks great and is easier to work with.
BUT, when I painted my own car I used a urethane color with a urethane clear coat.
I do think the color is better, richer, and now believe it is more durable too.

Price:
I can buy a gallon of urethane color from Kirker with activator for around $100.00
and choose from many different colors. no they won't match a factory color but with
so many colors available it is a great cost saver for an overall paint job for one
on a budget. They have many really nice colors to choose from and I can say from
experience it's good paint and holds up as good as anything out there.
I am not affiliated with them what so ever. I like their paint.
They have been in business over 50 years.
JC.

(It's not custom painting-it's custom sanding)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:19 am
when the color allows... white, black, red, etc and if i am able i will ALWAYS use SS as a base.

all this talk about shinier and add clear to SS is really nonsense.

example. your gloss units are determined by a lot of factors.
orange peel
color
quality vs low quality clear

etc etc

say your SS has gloss units of 80,

and your clear has gloss units of 90, 100 being a mirror,

you are completely counteracting with each other.

the clear will be shinier on its own, the gloss units of the clear will raise the gloss units of the SS BUT not as much as if you just cleared the SS. so no do not add clear into your single stage. also if it is a metallic SS clear over the top makes it 100% buffable.

now... i use SS as a base when i can because most of what i do gets cut and re cleared.
it gives me a much larger margin for error when cutting for re clear, i am very less likely to burn through the SS so no burnt edges, no spot in, etc.

when saying SS is cheaper for a gallon that does not mean it is cheaper in ready to spray form. after adding hardener and such it could be more expensive so understand your RTS cost.


one more thing.

most semi trucks these days are high solids basecoat.
Single stage with clear over it. so yes it is a thing. someone in a garage did not invent it.

PPG, Axalta, Akzo Nobel, and other have complete paint lines dedicated to SS with clear over them.


Rant over lol.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:52 pm
:goodpost: it's my feeling that you can put 10 coats of clear on your black job base or s/s and its not going to look any better than if you just put three coats on. its the flatness of the job that makes the difference, from body work to cut and buff. i to prefer ss in black as i have found that some base coats (the ones i have used) have a slight brown cast to them when out in the bright sun light. products play a major roll in this also, some clears will produce a much better buff out than others. not to mention the buffers products and ability. i kown this as i'm cutting and buffing my own car as we speak its a job i don't like.
Jay D.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:41 pm
:goodpost:
badsix wrote::goodpost: it's my feeling that you can put 10 coats of clear on your black job base or s/s and its not going to look any better than if you just put three coats on. its the flatness of the job that makes the difference, from body work to cut and buff. i to prefer ss in black as i have found that some base coats (the ones i have used) have a slight brown cast to them when out in the bright sun light. products play a major roll in this also, some clears will produce a much better buff out than others. not to mention the buffers products and ability. i kown this as i'm cutting and buffing my own car as we speak its a job i don't like.
Jay D.



i agree
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:52 pm
I have zero experience with clear over solids. However, I thought one of the benefits of using SS for black and other dark colors was that if it got scratched it wouldn't show as bad,
Clear coat over black if scratched would show as a white line, whereas straight single stage black would not have that problem.

Is this nonsense also?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:23 pm
'68 Coronet R/T wrote:I have zero experience with clear over solids. However, I thought one of the benefits of using SS for black and other dark colors was that if it got scratched it wouldn't show as bad,
Clear coat over black if scratched would show as a white line, whereas straight single stage black would not have that problem.

Is this nonsense also?


that may be correct, but i have never given it much thought or notice on SS black. i just always clear it.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:51 pm
Well, THAT got the conversation going. :rotfl:

Some good points by all.

I have a shelf that I need to paint. Wasn't going to be black, but I think I might do it anyway and in sections - one 2K with clear and one basecoat / clearcoat, perhaps a third in 2K/2K mixed with clear and clear over the top. Might just be an interesting exercise.....

I also find it interesting that 2K, here in Australia, is considered a utilitarian finish, to be used on commercial vehicles and for cheap jobs. While Axalta, for example, do have a paint line that includes 2K metallics, it's almost never used - my distributor doesn't even carry it and I can't remember ever seeing it in a repair shop. In the days of acrylic using a single stage metallic was common but not an activated urethane, naturally. There are, of course, 2K solids from every manufacturer.


'68 Coronet R/T wrote:Clear coat over black if scratched would show as a white line, whereas straight single stage black would not have that problem.


Having devoted most of the last 20 years to scratch repairs, my experience is that all scratches, regardless of the paint they're in, show as white lines. Reason for this is that the inside of the scratch is uneven and therefore reflects the light all over the place. Just like sanding a glossy surface leaves it white, or lighter at least. that's why buffing a scratch and rounding off the jagged edges can make it virtually disappear. Sometimes, depending on the colour, just brush touching the scratch with clear can wet out the roughness and also make it disappear. Same thing, really. You're just changing the way that the light reflects.
Chris
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