Majic enamel application failure

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:21 pm
Hello everyone, I'm new to painting and had an epic failure on my first try, was hoping someone could give me some insight as to what I did wrong.
Backdrop, I'm attempting to paint a tractor with Majic enamel from tractor supply. I removed all parts from the tractor and took down to bare metal. Cleaned thoroughly and primed with rustoleum primer. I thinned with acetone and it sprayed just fine, parts looked good.
Let cure for 2 weeks, figured I needed to scuff before paint, so used 800 grit on primer. Pressure washed all parts, let dry for a day. Wiped down all parts with paint thinner as directed by Majic paint. Mixed 8 ounces of Majic, 1 ounce of Majic reducer, and 1/2 ounce of Majic catalyst hardener, all according to recommendations.
I started spraying and immediately noticed I suppose what others would call fish eyes everywhere, tons of them, so I quickly took paint thinner and wiped it off. I then proceeded to try to spray on the back of a panel that was still primered but not sanded, same results. I switched guns, filter drier, air hose, all with the same results of fish eyes.
I tried spraying real a real light coat, it seemed like it had less fish eyes, but did not have good coverage and seemed excessively orange peel.
I contacted Majic paints thinking it was a compatibility issue with the rustoleum, but the tech said it should not be a problem.
Weather was mild, 61 degrees, 28% humidity, sun shining.
So, here I am hoping that someone here may have a suggestion for what went wrong. Did I use too fine a grit sand paper on the primer? Or is it a paint issue? I'll attempt to attach a photo to show the adhesion problems.
Thanks in advance.
20220414_122625.jpg

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:59 pm
Maybe it's just me but this whole process sounds kind of bizzare. Okay, let's address this...
Let cure for 2 weeks, figured I needed to scuff before paint, so used 800 grit on primer. Pressure washed all parts, let dry for a day. Wiped down all parts with paint thinner as directed by Majic paint. Mixed 8 ounces of Majic, 1 ounce of Majic reducer, and 1/2 ounce of Majic catalyst hardener, all according to recommendations. You say there you wiped down all parts with "paint thinner." What kind of paint thinner.... like mineral spirits paint thinner, big box store lacquer thinner, or what???? And you pressure washed the surface after the 800 grit? Man, you could have had any amount of strange contamination from water coming out of a power washer..... And honestly, what you got there wasn't what I would typify as even fisheye.... I consider that pretty complete adhesion failure due to some type of surface contamination related to thinner wipe down or the pressure washer thing..... You need to go back down to bare metal on "a part" and start your process over. For a tractor like this it should just be primer, sand, tack rag, shoot topcoats, done. Temps probably are exactly helping you here either. Yeah, it's 61 out but how cold did it get the night before? And no, shooting in the sun isn't helping flow out at all.....
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:43 am
Contamination issue

After Sanding the Primer I can understand washing with mild soap and water after sanding BY HAND! Not with a pressure washer, the pump could be leaking oil internally and you wouldn't know it. Even your pre wash should be done by hand no pressure washers.

Wiping with Thinner? NO! like Darrel said what did you use????
I can see a real Wax and grease remover, Maybe.
(I don't use W/G remover if I am washing with mild mix of soap & water)
(liquid Tide the original not the new one with added smell crap)

Thinner after washing??? Don't use any type of thinner on fresh Primmer.

I have to paint my Tractor & Skid loader and I am not looking forward to them.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:23 am
Acetone and Paint Thinner both raise red flags.

If your primer was cured and sanded, the only thing you should wipe it down with is automotive Wax and Grease remover. The other options all leave a film behind either from their contents or by partially dissolving the material you are wiping down.

The key to using Wax and Grease remover, is to put some in a spray bottle, squirt it on the panel and then BEFORE IT DRIES wipe it off with a clean shop towel. Repeat until the towel comes up clean. At this point let it flash for 30 minutes to be sure any residual product has evaporated. Then you are ready to spray your color.

Not sure about the product you are using but 2 or 3 light coats might work better than trying to get full coverage in 1 coat.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:59 am
Thanks for the replies, I will try to clarify a few things. So I used an electric low psi pressure washer to rinse the parts. I then kept them in a climate controlled garage for a day to dry. I hung the parts and wiped down with paint thinner which was what the recommended procedure per the paint can was, then verified that with the Majic paint tech who I contacted.
The parts surface temp was 76 degrees F, I checked with an infrared detector before I started spraying, so I don't believe temp was an issue.
Maybe I wasn't clear on the original post, but I tried spraying the back part of a panel that had neither been sanded or wiped with paint thinner, and still had the same adhesion issues. So I don't feel like its a surface contamination, which is why I tried a different spray gun and hose thinking it could be something from the compressor side. I do have 2 filters/regulators and a disposable filter/drier that were used while spraying, so that leaves me with a bad mixture of paint as a possible culprit. I mixed per the manufacturer recommended ratios, but in hindsight, I wish I would have thinned it more and tried again to see what would have happened. Regardless, it appears as though I'll be re-doing the project, although I'm still not certain what to change. I may try a rustoleum color paint over the rustoleum primer and see if I have the same issue.



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:31 pm
Dzlpwr wrote:Thanks for the replies, I will try to clarify a few things. So I used an electric low psi pressure washer to rinse the parts. I then kept them in a climate controlled garage for a day to dry. I hung the parts and wiped down with paint thinner which was what the recommended procedure per the paint can was, then verified that with the Majic paint tech who I contacted.



When Zoomed on your pictures its a clear Contamination issue, Like the answer Don't like it I don't care that's what I think.
I have painted more than a few cars and Planes and have learned the Hard way with both about a great many things I am pretty confident I am correct.

Again

1. Your pressure washer could have an internal oil leak and you wouldn't even know it.
2. Using Paint thinner as a Wax and grease remover is a very Bad practice !
3. What brand and product of Paint thinner did you use and where was it purchased? please be very specific.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:27 pm
Well, here goes, believe it or don't, but there is no oil leaking from the pressure washer, it has no oil, nevermind the fact that I pressure washed the parts before I primered them to wash off all the debris from taking it down to bare metal and the primer had no issue with adhesion. I then followed the manufacturer recommendation to use paint thinner to wipe down. It is "Clean Strip" brand that i bought at a local hardware store. I'm not arguing its contamination, I specifically said i didn't think it was surface contamination, but clearly I thought it was contamination of some sort or I would not have changed hoses and spray guns and filter/drier.
Does anyone have suggestions for what could have caused this with the mix? ie. Could this be caused by not mixing the reducer and hardener correctly? Bad product? Has anyone here ever used this particular product? Thanks in advance.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:26 pm
Okay, read the entire label, even looked up the raw data sheet..... Whoever wrote those instructions might have some chemistry background but they sure as hell don't know anything about painting metal surfaces. So, what you bought wasn't Clean Strip, I'm thinking it was Klean Strip Paint Thinner, right? Klean Strip Paint Thinner has bit many people in the butt because they thought it was some "virgin" chemical product, kind of what mineral spirits used to be back when I was growing up. Many years ago manufacturing concerns just threw away their spent solvents as they used them. Solvent started increasing in price and environmental pressures meant that companies had to have their solvents taken away and properly RECYCLED. So how do they recycle this stuff and where does it end up. People assume it goes through some elaborate distillation process to reclaim it.... wrong.... it instead goes through simple sand filters which pull out debris but don't change the chemistry. All of these chemistries are collected and funneled right into that can of "paint thinner" which might be great for dissolving enamel from paint brushes.... and in my opinion that's about all it should be used for. If you are wiping a surface down with that stuff you are quite literally taking the contamination to the surface. You need a proper automotive grade wax and grease remover. They are made from the correct virgin solvent stocks to get the surface contamination free. And even at that you have to wipe stuff down and make sure every bit of it has time to flash off before moving on to painting. And again, blowing your pic. up....it is not bad material and is not improper mixing.... it is contamination......
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:53 am
Oh, and I went through some of my files on "surface tension." This article talks about it's relationship to polyurethanes and epoxies however even if the numbers are somewhat different the principles are the same....

When a coating is applied to a substrate that is contaminated with low surface energy particles such as oil, wax, grease, or silicone, fish eyes may develop in the coating as it is applied. These fish eyes are produced because the coating is unable to wet out the contaminated area.
All substrates have a surface energy and as a general rule, adhesion is achieved when the surface energy of the substrate is 8-10 dynes/cm greater than the surface tension of the liquid being applied to the substrate. Epoxy and polyurethane coatings may have a surface tension in the range of 38 dynes/cm.
So, applying this coating to a substrate that has a surface energy equal to or greater than 46 dynes/cm should wet out and provide a satisfactory bond. Many waxes and polishes contain silicone which has a surface energy of 24 dynes/cm. If the surface cleaning of the substrate leaves behind these polishing contaminates, the coating with a higher surface tension will not wet out these low surface energy particles leaving behind fish eyes as a result.
This is why low surface energy polymers such as polypropylene (30 dynes/cm), natural rubber (24 dynes/cm) and Teflon (20 dynes/cm) are difficult to bond to as coatings typically do not have surface tensions low enough to wet out these substrates.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:09 am
Strip it bare metal. Shoot 2 coats of Epoxy Primer on it and let it sit for 24 hours at 70 degrees. If it all looks good, you can shoot your color over it. If needed, you can sand it smooth and then shoot color over it.

Need to drop the wipe downs with paint thinner and acetone.

Personally, I would get rid of the "Majic" and get a decent Single Stage paint in the color you want.
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