Is metal conditioner obsolete?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:45 am
I have a gallon of CheMfil DX520 metal conditioner thats been sitting around my shop taking up space for years. I know the chief objection most people have to using conditioner is the need to use copious amounts of water to remove it from the metal. Which can introduce microscopic rust. Some paint suppliers say simply to avoid the stuff regardless, out of fear that it can't be completely removed and would damage the new paint. And since self etching primer does what conditioner does, it seems to me I don't need this gallon of conditioner. Is there any reason to keep it around? Thanks



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:47 am
I use a lot of similar products myself, I have never heard of that one but seams very similar to the ones I use. If you don't want it send it my way lol

Main problem with these products is people don't read or follow the instructions to the letter. Their are also tricks to using the stuff I have written about.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:20 am
Self etch primer does not take the place of metal conditioner. I use metal conditioner to scrub panels that are solid surface rust, or to just dissolve pits in deeply etched rust. So what if it takes a lot of water to neutralize it. It works.
Self etch contains so little acid, while it does provide good adhesion, it doesn't remove rust under your paint.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:58 am
I used a similar product called Metal Prep once and even following the directions I had serious adhesion problems.

In my opinion, media blasting is the best way to remove rust and old paint from metal. No danger of distorting panels if done properly and the metal is ready for epoxy primer when finished.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:04 pm
Jim
Was that Metal Prep you used from Por15?
If so that product too claims to leave a zinc phosphate coating on metal.

Some of these products are better than others in my experience, I trust only those made by Dupont, Axalta and PPG that are made to be used and guarantied under their Paint systems.


I have used many others for heavy cleaning but always follow that with Dupont, Axalta or PPG products before paint. Overkill? Maybe but I don't like to take chances after your experience and reading about others bad experiences.

While I agree with you that Blasting then Epoxy is best, I also like the Idea of Cold Galvanizing the metal that leaves a layer of zinc phosphate for added Rust protection and that's why I use the stuff. When using it it takes time for the zinc phosphate coating to grow that's why it needs to be timed when applying the stuff.


The stuff I use is a Cold Galvanizing metal conditioning system and NOT a magic Rust remover it does not and will not remove heavy rust!
Its also is not great to weld on! and causes problems with the welding process if you try, Not to mention the Bad Gasses that it can create If you weld on it! It can hurt you if you breathed it. Its galvanized steel at that Point NEVER weld Galvanized steel without removing the coating first!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:09 pm
chopolds wrote:Self etch primer does not take the place of metal conditioner. I use metal conditioner to scrub panels that are solid surface rust, or to just dissolve pits in deeply etched rust. So what if it takes a lot of water to neutralize it. It works.
Self etch contains so little acid, while it does provide good adhesion, it doesn't remove rust under your paint.

Agreed, I would never consider self etch for rust removal, and that's why I have a big sand blaster. Rather, I think of self etch as a primer only. But I still have a mental block against using the rattle can self etch, as it's not two part, and I can't conceive of a single part primer that would adhere, and would appreciate any and all opinion on that.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:17 pm
Doright wrote:Jim
Was that Metal Prep you used from Por15?
If so that product too claims to leave a zinc phosphate coating on metal.

Some of these products are better than others in my experience, I trust only those made by Dupont, Axalta and PPG that are made to be used and guarantied under their Paint systems.


I have used many others for heavy cleaning but always follow that with Dupont, Axalta or PPG products before paint. Overkill? Maybe but I don't like to take chances after your experience and reading about others bad experiences.

While I agree with you that Blasting then Epoxy is best, I also like the Idea of Cold Galvanizing the metal that leaves a layer of zinc phosphate for added Rust protection and that's why I use the stuff. When using it it takes time for the zinc phosphate coating to grow that's why it needs to be timed when applying the stuff.


The stuff I use is a Cold Galvanizing metal conditioning system and NOT a magic Rust remover it does not and will not remove heavy rust!
Its also is not great to weld on! and causes problems with the welding process if you try, Not to mention the Bad Gasses that it can create If you weld on it! It can hurt you if you breathed it. Its galvanized steel at that Point NEVER weld Galvanized steel without removing the coating first!


Thats for sure, welding zinc is deadly. Are you talking about the zinc in a rattle can? Thats the only cold galvanizing I have seen, I know nothing about either kind, but would sure like to try some zinc some time, its got to be durable, once it adheres. I'll google Cold Galvanizing, thats a brand name? I like the blasting/epoxy approach, which does not use any self etch paint, but I know a lot of painters use the self etch instead of the epoxy. I only use the rattle can stuff and only in places that aren't going to see a lot of weather and that are small in size. I use PPG epoxy primer mostly.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:21 pm
Doright wrote:I use a lot of similar products myself, I have never heard of that one but seams very similar to the ones I use. If you don't want it send it my way lol

Main problem with these products is people don't read or follow the instructions to the letter. Their are also tricks to using the stuff I have written about.


Yes, I know they aren't easy to remove, I have seen suggestions for using a brush and several rinses. I guess if its a hot dry day it might be OK.



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:53 pm
The trick to getting it off is to scrub it in let its do its thing timed per instructions keeping it wet with more of the chemical never allow it to dry on the metal not even close to dry then fully rinse with lots of clean water.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:20 am
Bustedwrench wrote:[ Are you talking about the zinc in a rattle can?


No!
Their are many Zinc enriched EPOXYs though.

What I am talking about is the products from Dupont, Axalta and PPG.
The Original made by Dupont now made By Axalta is 5717s & 5718S are the originals that I found and started using.

I started with the Dupont products which claimed it to be a cold Galvanizing system.
PPG's product is the same but a little different as its their own blend.

5718s must be used after 5717s to get the benefits.
I have used it on a bunch of projects never had a problem after learning how to use it properly, The written instructions don't tell all.
Dennis B.
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