New Guy just asking for a little help

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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 7:21 pm
Sorry a bit windy but I dont want to leave anything out for anyone willing to take to time to help me. (Sorry about my writing style any "Statement" I appear to make is really a question or at least a quest for affirmation..) :)

Background, I once bought a 2hp 20gal low budget compressor back in school days just to paint a fender. I got a Binks7 gun at a pawnshop and fogged up my mommas basement spraying with that old urethane and buff method.

25 years later (3 years ago) a friend of mine in the business helped me spray a new fender and bumper on my 2004 Tahoe. I watched, I was amazed the quick dry time compared to the old urethane and cook methods, but I did not realize the quality of his compressor. He told me his gun was a $300.00 hvlp that was "decent"... He shot all coats with the same rig. All parts on this job were new purchase prepped parts with whatever black coating they come with. I'm guessing that was a "sealer" cause I think I recall we primed it gray first too..

Now I have another fender to do on this same tahoe which I scrapped from car a guy let me part out from him. But this one is a dark green compared to the silver birch metallic which is what I have to color change it to. I am patient and here is what I am wondering.

1. I got the used fender in really good shape. So it has a serious clear coat which I believe I have to remove before priming out the other color. I don't have a compressor to drive air tools and I sometimes get crazy thinking about it and wonder could I/should I chem stip the whole fender.??? Or would it be better to just get some paper and work the elbow patiently trying to get just the clear coat off??. AND Maybe with the help of an electric vibrating sander carefully applied..? I realize PREP is everything. I am guessing a square vibrating sander is not the best option - but might serve to rip off some clear. I've done more woodwork over the years but I am guessing they make electric orbital palm sanders if absolutely necessary?

2. I'm using a matrix brand product line because that was where he sent me to get supplies the first time. I believe the paint is lacquer type and the clear is basic gloss. I have some understanding of mixing the paint and reducer, as well as the clear and hardener.

3. Now the nasty part. I only have a 2 barrel "tornado" brand compressor that might have a combined 5 gallons and capable of 4 cfm @90psi. Its old and I am not sure if its up to snuff.. Which from basic reads I done is not going to wont get too far before having to hold up for re-charge. I'm guessing I can run the gun for 45 seconds and hold-up for 45 seconds to keep the pressure high enough to complete a fender. I could be wrong. I might even be able to pull the fender off straight up one go if I paint into a litte bit of recharge time. I just dont know how much air the HVLP is going to use..

4. I am even thinking of attempting it all with the HF cheapo purple gun.. The binks is long gone.

Again, I am working a front fender and a bumper that don't even have to be sprayed at the same time. I AM A PATIENT MAN. In my estimation, I can stall out for the compressor to charge back up as much as needed for a single part at a time, and I can work out any issues manually post-facto with the exception of the clear coat application.???

And if you tell me its just not happening with my (basically nailing compressor), then is it even worth purchasing a cheap harbor freight FORTRESS 27gal or the Lowes Kobalt 26gal both in the 400$/4-5,cfm 27gal, range...??? I like the specs of the Fortress 27gallon 200psi tank stated at 5.1cfm, but I like the Kobalt 3 year warranty.

I just seem to recall that the old Campbell House 20gallon never had a problem spraying high pressure urethane on a single fender. I am thinking the real question is can I pull off the HVLP painting with the 2 barrell nail compressor?

Would a pro say "yea I could do it if you wanted to torture me and paid me triple"..?? LOL Or would you say just find a paint guy and see how much he would charge me to pop it real quick - piece by piece. ???

Oh yea, there will be a hood too. Most likely an LKQ purchase which I would assume would come sealed..

Thanks for any help in advance..



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 9:37 pm
You could try the gun with water and see how far ya get with that compressor.
Most likely just too small.
Im spraying silver birch metallic also.Took a few tries to match but finally have it real close.



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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2023 10:21 pm
myke wrote:You could try the gun with water and see how far ya get with that compressor.
Most likely just too small.
Im spraying silver birch metallic also.Took a few tries to match but finally have it real close.


That's a good thought. I am thinking water would err to the shorter time frame.

Are you also doing a Tahoe? Are you also working with metallic Lacquer base and reducer and how are you mixing it..?

Thanks for the reply. On the color match - I recall the time we did the other fender and I gave the paint supply store the VIN and I was like what else could ya need? She informed me that there could be several shadings and that they had to match it manually with sample cards. She did a pretty good job.

Seems like when all done the fender seemed a tad lighter or brighter than the door next to it, but with a couple weeks curing and aging it all matched pretty good.

I am kinda bummed out about the compressor deal. I know I can pull off a fender with HVLP with a min 25gal/5cfm@90. But I just cant stomach the $500.00 expense for a hobby right now. Times are just too tight... I might check the pawn shops before I make any decisions..

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 5:25 am
BBC333 wrote:So it has a serious clear coat which I believe I have to remove before priming out the other color.


If the paint is in good condition then there's no need to strip it at all. Just sand P800 wet, evenly all over and go straight to your colour coat. If you wanted to you could go to P600 and then a sealer which, if mid to light grey, will help with your colour match.

BBC333 wrote:I believe the paint is lacquer type and the clear is basic gloss.


"Believing" is not good enough. There are huge differences between what you call lacquer and the more commonly used 2K products. Lacquer/acrylic/1K does not usually use a hardener. You need to know exactly what you're spraying for compatibility and performance, not to mention safety. Get the Technical Data Sheet for the product and read it carefully. It will have all the information that you need to know about substrate preparation, spraying (gun type and pressures) as well as compatible thinners and other products you may need. Once you decide on a brand/system, try to stick with it - the products are formulated to work together.

BBC333 wrote: Now the nasty part. I only have a 2 barrel "tornado" brand compressor that might have a combined 5 gallons and capable of 4 cfm @90psi.


Nasty is right. That compressor simply won't do the job and your plan of spraying, then waiting won't work. I understand that compressors are expensive, I've bought a few over the years, but trying to work without enough air is a nightmare and will show in the results.

If a new compressor is stretching the budget then have a look through your local classifieds / Facebook Marketplace / Gumtree / or even pawn shops. Reasonable compressors do come up fairly regularly and generally at good prices. You will need something that is capable of, at a minimum, 3-4cfm more than what your gun uses. Generally I suggest 17cfm as a minimum but this allows for some air tool use.

Understand the terminology:
LVLP is Low Volume Low Pressure. Very few manufacturers know how to make a good LVLP gun, Anest Iwata being the only well known one that I'm aware of. Star (sold over there as Astro) do one as well, not as good as the Iwata but fair. Most of the others are, at best, LVMP guns or liars. Expect to pay top dollar for one that is even half decent. Efficiency ranges are quite high at up to, even over, 80%,

HVLP is High Volume Low Pressure. Typically these use up to 50% more air (in CFM) than other types. Understand that, for the cheap Chinese guns, they're branded with whatever the manufacturer thinks will sell, not what they actually are. HVLP was developed for the US market when environmental legislation limited the amount of overspray which could go into the atmosphere. Typically achieve around 65% efficiency, that is paint that is sprayed and actually stays on the panel. Not really used anywhere else (except Canada who copied a lot of the US legislation). Good (read 'expensive') ones can deliver reasonable results in the right hands but cheaper ones or those operated by someone less experienced result in lots of orange peel and urethane wave. Probably not the best choice.

RP is Reduced Pressure, aka Compliant. Generally these are the guns that professionals use, usually from one of the big 3 manufacturers - SATA, Devilbiss and Iwata. Generally operate at around 28psi and use anywhere from 10 to 14cfm. Efficiency ranges from 65% up to about 75%. Good ones will produce outstanding quality and they waste less in overspray then HVLP guns. Quite a few available at a range of price points.

HVHP or HP is High Volume High Pressure. If finish quality is paramount, wastage not an issue and air is available in abundant quantities then these guns will deliver the best finish. They operate at anything up to 60psi and use more air than any three compressors can deliver. Expect to lose around half of the paint you bought.

Forget about hardware store guns. People who sell hammers, nails and timber rarely understand spray guns and only stock what is cheap and they can sell lots of. I've read lots of reviews on the HF purple gun, not one written by anyone who would know what they're talking about.

Here are a couple of relatively inexpensive, but good quality guns, each under $150USD

Anest Iwata AZ3 HTE2. Rock solid guns that just work, for years and years. Only uses about 8cfm so suitable for a mid-sized compressor. Sizes from 1.3mm right up to 3.5mm. I have 1.3mm and prefer them to my Pro Lites for smaller jobs like bars and single guards.
https://www.spraygunsdirect.co.uk/product/iwata-az3-hte2-spray-gun/

Devilbiss FLG5. Devilbiss quality but not quite as solid as the Iwata. Wider spray pattern suits bigger panels. Hardly a Pro Lite or DV1, but pretty good for 1/4 the price. Range of sizes but go for the 1.3mm for base and clear. Air consumption 10cfm, so still well in the mid-range.
https://www.spraygunsdirect.co.uk/product/devilbiss-flg5-spray-gun/
Chris

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 8:19 am
Chris has given you all the necessary details.

Bottom line is that all Spray guns have air pressure (PSI) and volume (CFM or SCFM) requirements in order to function properly.

As Chris stated, some (Chinese) manufacturers rate their guns with low CFM requirements to sucker people into buying them. In general, the better quality guns are going to need 8-13 CFM or higher in some cases.

Get a compressor that puts out 15 CFM minimum if you plan to spray paint, use a DA sander or other air tools.
1968 Coronet R/T


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:26 pm
Rather than hanging the fender and dealing with it in place. Or putting it on horses in the yard., just dropped that fender off a table on the asphalt and recalled how tender they are. Then I picked it up ten more times and slammed it till unrecognizable.... All to get the precious plastic water well out before I restored it "to perfect condition"...

I hate my life...

I figure at least after I calm down now I wont have to worry about spending any time or money prepping... I think it was my way of convincing myself to just take it to a shop and pay em what they want to paint the hood, fender, and bumper...

Does anyone know if there is any real difference between the oem replacements and "CAPA" certified...??



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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 4:35 pm
NFT5 wrote:
BBC333 wrote:So it has a serious clear coat which I believe I have to remove before priming out the other color.


If the paint is in good condition then there's no need to strip it at all. Just sand P800 wet, evenly all over and go straight to your colour coat. If you wanted to you could go to P600 and then a sealer which, if mid to light grey, will help with your colour match.

BBC333 wrote:I believe the paint is lacquer type and the clear is basic gloss.


"Believing" is not good enough. There are huge differences between what you call lacquer and the more commonly used 2K products. Lacquer/acrylic/1K does not usually use a hardener. You need to know exactly what you're spraying for compatibility and performance, not to mention safety. Get the Technical Data Sheet for the product and read it carefully. It will have all the information that you need to know about substrate preparation, spraying (gun type and pressures) as well as compatible thinners and other products you may need. Once you decide on a brand/system, try to stick with it - the products are formulated to work together.

BBC333 wrote: Now the nasty part. I only have a 2 barrel "tornado" brand compressor that might have a combined 5 gallons and capable of 4 cfm @90psi.


Nasty is right. That compressor simply won't do the job and your plan of spraying, then waiting won't work. I understand that compressors are expensive, I've bought a few over the years, but trying to work without enough air is a nightmare and will show in the results.

If a new compressor is stretching the budget then have a look through your local classifieds / Facebook Marketplace / Gumtree / or even pawn shops. Reasonable compressors do come up fairly regularly and generally at good prices. You will need something that is capable of, at a minimum, 3-4cfm more than what your gun uses. Generally I suggest 17cfm as a minimum but this allows for some air tool use.

Understand the terminology:
LVLP is Low Volume Low Pressure. Very few manufacturers know how to make a good LVLP gun, Anest Iwata being the only well known one that I'm aware of. Star (sold over there as Astro) do one as well, not as good as the Iwata but fair. Most of the others are, at best, LVMP guns or liars. Expect to pay top dollar for one that is even half decent. Efficiency ranges are quite high at up to, even over, 80%,

HVLP is High Volume Low Pressure. Typically these use up to 50% more air (in CFM) than other types. Understand that, for the cheap Chinese guns, they're branded with whatever the manufacturer thinks will sell, not what they actually are. HVLP was developed for the US market when environmental legislation limited the amount of overspray which could go into the atmosphere. Typically achieve around 65% efficiency, that is paint that is sprayed and actually stays on the panel. Not really used anywhere else (except Canada who copied a lot of the US legislation). Good (read 'expensive') ones can deliver reasonable results in the right hands but cheaper ones or those operated by someone less experienced result in lots of orange peel and urethane wave. Probably not the best choice.

RP is Reduced Pressure, aka Compliant. Generally these are the guns that professionals use, usually from one of the big 3 manufacturers - SATA, Devilbiss and Iwata. Generally operate at around 28psi and use anywhere from 10 to 14cfm. Efficiency ranges from 65% up to about 75%. Good ones will produce outstanding quality and they waste less in overspray then HVLP guns. Quite a few available at a range of price points.

HVHP or HP is High Volume High Pressure. If finish quality is paramount, wastage not an issue and air is available in abundant quantities then these guns will deliver the best finish. They operate at anything up to 60psi and use more air than any three compressors can deliver. Expect to lose around half of the paint you bought.

Forget about hardware store guns. People who sell hammers, nails and timber rarely understand spray guns and only stock what is cheap and they can sell lots of. I've read lots of reviews on the HF purple gun, not one written by anyone who would know what they're talking about.

Here are a couple of relatively inexpensive, but good quality guns, each under $150USD

Anest Iwata AZ3 HTE2. Rock solid guns that just work, for years and years. Only uses about 8cfm so suitable for a mid-sized compressor. Sizes from 1.3mm right up to 3.5mm. I have 1.3mm and prefer them to my Pro Lites for smaller jobs like bars and single guards.
https://www.spraygunsdirect.co.uk/product/iwata-az3-hte2-spray-gun/

Devilbiss FLG5. Devilbiss quality but not quite as solid as the Iwata. Wider spray pattern suits bigger panels. Hardly a Pro Lite or DV1, but pretty good for 1/4 the price. Range of sizes but go for the 1.3mm for base and clear. Air consumption 10cfm, so still well in the mid-range.
https://www.spraygunsdirect.co.uk/product/devilbiss-flg5-spray-gun/


Thank you for the detailed response. A couple questions. Thank you very much for your thoughts in advance.!

I might be back in the game I just found out I can rent a 14CFM compressor at a Sunbelt rentals for 70bux for the weekend..

I am wondering what I could do for compressor line drying/oil catch as I am in the deep south. But I am assuming that just to fire this compressor up and start shooting would put enough moisture in there for fisheyes at a minimum?? Is there a line dryer that you can recommend to just stick in-line that will suffice? This may still be my bottleneck..??? I assume the compressor rental is a oil lubed but not sure.
https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment-rental/air-compressors-and-air-tools/14-cfm-gas-air-compressor/0030035/

On the two guns you mentioned. Thank you very much. That looks like the most affordable game online at initial glance. I see it looks like the flow control is a new option on the Iwata?? Do you recommend with or without. Or is that not a new concept for this gun?

Is the high build primer just not going to go thru a 1.3?

Here is what I am working with,,:

GENERAL PREP -
Advantage 190 - wax and degreaser.

PRIMER - (for new parts with E-coat)
Advantage brand 301 lacquer based acrylic primer (High solids)
Advantage 89 for primer cut (1.25:1) and general cleanup between all products here. (IS THAT OK to put lacquer acrylic primer on a new e-coat and under the urethane base?)

I am wondering if I should have just got straight acetone for cutting the primer and general gun cleaning?

Base PAINT -
Matrix brand Silver Birch metallic URETHANE - (its a Tahoe color)
Matrix brand MR-0870 Reducer- Medium temp (1:1 to 1:1.5 with urethane base)

CLEAR -
Matrix MS-52 URETHANE general purpose clear / 4:1 with 006 (Slower) hardener
Matrix MS-006 slow hardener (as I will be painting out doors in 80 degrees)

Does all this look good to clean and mix with no dangerous reactions.?

I am thinking 400 scotch pad for e-coat prep for primer, wait 30mins after last primer coat and maybe I can get away with 800 scotch pad for base prep after high build application if primer lays down good? Then up to 3 coats of base and then up to 3 coats clear with appropriate flash times observed.? No sanding between base coats or clear unless forced..

I have paint grade "poly white" rags and tac cloths for between clean coat wiping.

Thanks in advance.



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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 6:52 pm
To all who attempted to read that last post I have modified it to remove CRAZY and ADD. Hopefully it will get some bites back now..

Apologies.



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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 12:11 am
The hose that comes with compressors probably will have junk /oil in it.Cheap desiccant dryers should be available.
I just sprayed Silver Birch Metallic ,beautiful colour.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2023 4:07 am
BBC333 wrote: Is there a line dryer that you can recommend to just stick in-line that will suffice?


There are reasonable quality filters and dessicant dryers available, although not necessarily cheap. You'll need 10-15m of hose before the filter/dryer to get most of the moisture to condense and then another 10m of nice, clean hose between that and your gun. Brands vary but a few members here can recommend some that will be available over there.

BBC333 wrote:I see it looks like the flow control is a new option on the Iwata?? Do you recommend with or without. Or is that not a new concept for this gun?


The gun originally came with the air control and they deleted it as a lower cost option. But now the difference is only about $6, IIRC, so might as well get it.

BBC333 wrote:Is the high build primer just not going to go thru a 1.3?


Probably not. A 1.8mm tip is much better. But you could cheap out on a primer gun, given that you'd be blocking it all back anyway. Unfortunately the AZ3 isn't sold with multiple setups and they're nearly as expensive as a whole gun to buy. The FLG5 is a little better in this regard, but not a lot - very occasionally there are multiple setup deals on offer, but of course, never when you want to buy.

BBC333 wrote:IS THAT OK to put lacquer acrylic primer on a new e-coat and under the urethane base?


I've done it, and not had a problem, but it's not recommended. I know 2K primer is expensive and you can usually only get it in larger (4 litre) tins, but it's the better alternative.

BBC333 wrote:Does all this look good to clean and mix with no dangerous reactions.?


What I said above but I'll leave it to the local guys to talk about local brand recommendations.

BBC333 wrote:I am thinking 400 scotch pad for e-coat prep for primer, wait 30mins after last primer coat and maybe I can get away with 800 scotch pad for base prep after high build application if primer lays down good? Then up to 3 coats of base and then up to 3 coats clear with appropriate flash times observed.? No sanding between base coats or clear unless forced..


Even I wouldn't try to do base over primer, especially high build, using wet on wet method. You can do it over a single coat sealer, but high build needs to be blocked smooth and level.

Some use the red Scotch pads over e-coat, I use the grey, but scuffed very thoroughly. E-coat is very thin - I wouldn't use anything that was in the order of P400, unless I was doing a coat of epoxy for some reason. The fastest curing 2K primer I have takes at least an hour before being ready to sand. UV primers are much quicker at just a few seconds, but you have to buy the special UV light and use guns with UV blocking cups.

If your primer is the right shade then 2 coats of base should be more than enough. I rarely, maybe once or twice a year, put on 3 coats of clear. In my opinion, if I can't lay down clear that, apart from a little denibbing, is equivalent to OEM standard, then I shouldn't be charging for what I do. It's very expensive stuff to just sand and polish off.
Chris
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