New Guy just asking for a little help

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2023 8:34 am
NFT5 wrote:
BBC333 wrote: Is there a line dryer that you can recommend to just stick in-line that will suffice?


There are reasonable quality filters and dessicant dryers available, although not necessarily cheap. You'll need 10-15m of hose before the filter/dryer to get most of the moisture to condense and then another 10m of nice, clean hose between that and your gun. Brands vary but a few members here can recommend some that will be available over there.

BBC333 wrote:I see it looks like the flow control is a new option on the Iwata?? Do you recommend with or without. Or is that not a new concept for this gun?


The gun originally came with the air control and they deleted it as a lower cost option. But now the difference is only about $6, IIRC, so might as well get it.

BBC333 wrote:Is the high build primer just not going to go thru a 1.3?


Probably not. A 1.8mm tip is much better. But you could cheap out on a primer gun, given that you'd be blocking it all back anyway. Unfortunately the AZ3 isn't sold with multiple setups and they're nearly as expensive as a whole gun to buy. The FLG5 is a little better in this regard, but not a lot - very occasionally there are multiple setup deals on offer, but of course, never when you want to buy.

BBC333 wrote:IS THAT OK to put lacquer acrylic primer on a new e-coat and under the urethane base?


I've done it, and not had a problem, but it's not recommended. I know 2K primer is expensive and you can usually only get it in larger (4 litre) tins, but it's the better alternative.

BBC333 wrote:Does all this look good to clean and mix with no dangerous reactions.?


What I said above but I'll leave it to the local guys to talk about local brand recommendations.

BBC333 wrote:I am thinking 400 scotch pad for e-coat prep for primer, wait 30mins after last primer coat and maybe I can get away with 800 scotch pad for base prep after high build application if primer lays down good? Then up to 3 coats of base and then up to 3 coats clear with appropriate flash times observed.? No sanding between base coats or clear unless forced..


Even I wouldn't try to do base over primer, especially high build, using wet on wet method. You can do it over a single coat sealer, but high build needs to be blocked smooth and level.

Some use the red Scotch pads over e-coat, I use the grey, but scuffed very thoroughly. E-coat is very thin - I wouldn't use anything that was in the order of P400, unless I was doing a coat of epoxy for some reason. The fastest curing 2K primer I have takes at least an hour before being ready to sand. UV primers are much quicker at just a few seconds, but you have to buy the special UV light and use guns with UV blocking cups.

If your primer is the right shade then 2 coats of base should be more than enough. I rarely, maybe once or twice a year, put on 3 coats of clear. In my opinion, if I can't lay down clear that, apart from a little denibbing, is equivalent to OEM standard, then I shouldn't be charging for what I do. It's very expensive stuff to just sand and polish off.


Thanks for the insight and effort to help really..!!

It sounds to me like I need to swap my Primer out for "single coast sealer"... Or are you telling me I would be better off with a 2k out of a can to prep as ready to shoot base on E-coat substrate? Its not too late and I could even just shelve the high build for body work down to metals with bondo involved..?? I dont know you have me even wondering WHY she gave me the high build lacquer acrylic at all now...

I believe I am still misunderstanding primers. When you say "2K" you are referring to a 2part epoxy yes? So I am assuming you are talking about spraying from a "rustoleum type rig" with the bottom popper that I have seen on the tube./.?? Yet you would prefer that as a final primer coat as opposed to watering down a high build primer though i good nozzle gun? I was just assuming I would dilute well and go on thin with an application just thick enough cover smooth and uniform, and yet thin enough to barely cover to black e-coat. Moreso just an added BINDER SUBSTRATE between E-coat and Urethane as well as some added protection and color changing..? Be SURE I am just speculation from living on Earth as a mechanically incliner diy'r, so correct me please.. I am grateful for your time.

(What makes a good DIY guy? Someone who stumbles onto a need and not only goes after every information resource, but wastes all the money required to get the rigs and setups as close to field required as possible. Someone who did not understand the value of money and where it would have been better placed.. LOL)

Maybe that particular primer (the 301 I bought) is one of those ones that says full bodied but not really considered "high build". But it does feel thick in the can... On the primer my best guess is that she just assumed I would be trying to spray something that would lay down thick and move on with min prep. I think its a 1.25:1 which tells me it should not go on too bad.. On the blocking, surely its possible to go by hand feel with 4-600 grit on single projects like a fender or bumper? It just feels to me like the whole point of laying down a thick base is defeated by just blindly going back that aggressively?? Which I assume is why the "Block" method for trueness. I could see where this method should be employed if working with bondo etc trying to build back an actually physical shape. Again I think I am answering my own question and I just have the wrong priming product....

Its funny you mentioned hose lengths to maximize line drier efficiency. I was actually laying here this morning half awake devising in my mind how to build is BIG RICE BOX DRYER and how much line I would put in front of and after. And then what kinds of solids filter I would put after the box...

And yea I figured the any lines that come with a rental would be FUBAR unless they are renting oiless compressor units. And then still... I'm kinda thinking I will take my existing 20 ' Line and flush it with something and go from there.

QUESTION - Do those little squirrely lines work for paint air? I was talking to a neighbor when some roofers were doing my house recently telling him I could not believe that they could fire 90lb psi gun nailers thru those skinny lines they were using AND AT THOSE LENGTHS. My neighbor went on to advise me that he was some sort of old engineering dawg and "That I would be surprised how much air you can get thru a line" citing they would force thousands of PSI thru thin lines. I am sure not the same material. I quess the question would be have you ever hooked up a long squggly air hose and checked the pressure at the end to see if same??

FYI I got my replacement hood yesterday from carparts REPLACEMENTXL brand. Unless specs of off dimensionally, its a killer reproduction if not better. They used a high end shipper for around $150 I dont want to think about it. I also got my Fender that I had to purchase to replace the one I broke and it was shipped by Fed EX. OOops they did it again. My wife says, "Why are you videoing the opening of the package". And I say "because everyone is a Sorry Cnt today", as I reveal to her the dents and dings which I knew would be there after a quick glance of the box.. A new one is on the way at no charge already. I just hope that bumper from 10 days ago which I have not yet opened is intact.. I'll be videoing that one too..

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2023 8:17 pm
Yes, primers can be a bit confusing. I'm going to respond in generalities, since a lot of the brands, especially retail ones, are different where you are from to what we can buy here. For brand specific advice the local guys will be of more help to you than I can.

Essentially there are two kinds of primers - a high build for when your surface needs filling and then sanding to make it smooth and flat, or what you could call a "low build" where the surface is good but you need an intermediate layer to provide the bond that your topcoat(s) can't achieve on the substrate, an example being a new panel. Sometimes they're used to provide a base for the topcoat that is the correct shade or colour to help the topcoat achieve its "true"colour. These "low build" primers can come as 1K or 2K and be based on various chemistries, the most common being acrylic, urethane and epoxy. They are referred to, variously, as primers or sealers.

1K is a product that does not use a hardener. The thinner is not considered a "part" since it just evaporates off. 2K products use a hardener.

To make things even more confusing, high build primers can be used as sealers by using a different quantity of thinner or reducer and in 2K types, sometimes a different ratio of hardener.

High build primers usually require sanding to level over the underlying substrate - generally one that has been repaired. "Low build" primers can be used in a "wet on wet" application, meaning that the primer is sprayed on and then just allowed to flash before topcoats are applied. Alternately they can be allowed to dry and then sanded to remove any imperfections like dust nibs or even slight orange peel, understanding that the flatter the substrate is the better the topcoats will look. Generally, for people without a lot of experience, or those painting in other than a proper booth, this method is better. More work in the extra sanding step, but it doesn't take long to run over a surface with P800 wet and then clean it up. Every little bit helps.

BBC333 wrote:It sounds to me like I need to swap my Primer out for "single coast sealer"... Or are you telling me I would be better off with a 2k out of a can to prep as ready to shoot base on E-coat substrate? Its not too late and I could even just shelve the high build for body work down to metals with bondo involved..?? I dont know you have me even wondering WHY she gave me the high build lacquer acrylic at all now...


As above, if you're working on a new panel then just cleaning and scuffing the e-coat before a "low build" primer would be more than sufficient. HOWEVER, if you're using a spray can then the chances of getting a smooth surface are Buckleys. The droplets from spray cans are just too big and it will need sanding. In that case, you might as well use the 2K spray can stuff since it will give you better performance than the 1K - just be gentle when sanding that you don't rub through.

BBC333 wrote:I believe I am still misunderstanding primers.

I've tried to help you with this, above. Come back to me with any questions you might have.

When you say "2K" you are referring to a 2part epoxy yes?

Epoxy, urethane or acrylic. Doesn't really matter other than epoxy is usually used on bare metal for it's anti-rust abilities. Some other primers are also tagged as "DTM" or down to metal, but usually not as good as epoxy in that role.

So I am assuming you are talking about spraying from a "rustoleum type rig" with the bottom popper that I have seen on the tube./.?? Yet you would prefer that as a final primer coat as opposed to watering down a high build primer though i good nozzle gun? I was just assuming I would dilute well and go on thin with an application just thick enough cover smooth and uniform, and yet thin enough to barely cover to black e-coat.

Using a spray gun is almost always better than using a spray can. However if the choice was to use a 2K spray can or a 1K product through a spray gun then the 2K product should win on performance and less long term shrinkage. As I said above, you'll have to sand it.

Moreso just an added BINDER SUBSTRATE between E-coat and Urethane as well as some added protection and color changing..? Be SURE I am just speculation from living on Earth as a mechanically incliner diy'r, so correct me please.. I am grateful for your time.


If I understand you correctly here then an additional layer is better than painting directly over e-coat. E-coats come in many different variants. Some can be painted straight over, some are waterbase, some need a sealer. The safest way is to scuff and seal. You can use epoxy or a urethane type product - it doesn't really matter that much. What does matter is that, for best performance, you keep that layer thin. The thinner your total paint thickness the more the paint will be able to flex with changes in temperature, without cracking. This is why a lot of show cars can't be left out in the weather - the paint looks awesome but there's so much of it that a night in sub-zero temperatures (and I'm talking Celcius here), followed by a sunny warm day could ruin the finish.
Chris



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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2023 11:16 pm
ALL INPUT STILL WELCOME...!

Final EDIT LOL. I DO read all you guys type. And I just want to say I have read the "Grit to use" sticky a couple times. My question there would be is 1500-2000 buffing required on urethane base coats prior to urethane clear.? (I am thinking thats for single_stage?) On mult-base coat coloar applications like this, am I relying on the gun to spray the base correctly, and then move straight into clear still wet but a little past final base coat Flash?? And then the clear brings it all to finish given no orange peel or blisters? Hint: THESE ARE ALL QUESTIONS POISED AS STUPID STATEMENTs BY AN IGNORANT PERSON ... IN case its unclear.. LOL

@NFT5 -Thank you for the responses sorry If I duped a question in the other thread I just created.

I Think I heard you say always seal over primer before color coat and you can seal over a primer flash if lays out right if product application flows well and is mostly for color change? So in that scenario would be 1k over E-coat then flash to Color Coat and flash straight into clear coats / easy as one two three??..

(did I misunderstand in thinking that "wet coating" is repeat coating at flash times?)

I also heard you say that SEALER is always advisable prior to color coat after sanding down a high build primer, or after priming over any body work for that matter.?? OR will people lay down a good compatible product color coat over a light well-applied color change primer?

Still after testing the E-coat today with some HARSH Advantage 89 lacquer thinner, I am really leaning toward going right over the E-coat with base. Are you saying 400 is ok for this if I am careful? I am leaning toward thinking elbow grease and 600 for base prep on e-coat (so as to be sure no to go through it), but not higher because it may not cut the e-coat right for the base color to disperse and bite properly? You may have said this I am just getting slightly confused.

It should be noted that I do have some minor body work to attempt on the rear quarter near that gas filler opening so this quart of High Build will def not go to waste.. LOL But obviously I need to take care of the this fender, hood, and bumper and get it riding for me again first..

I imagine it would be pretty comical to be a fly on the wall as I stand there with beer in hand FOR HOURS figuring out where all the rubber air diverters and nik-naks plug in to this Tahoe front end. LOL I actually found all 5 air diverter locations today managing not to "over-build" it and have to tear parts back off (hate that). And not that I am flawless on this one... But I think I can honestly say I am ready for fender and hood install once painted. And if I screw em up too bad I'll just drive it like that till someone can do it right. What is important to me to make sure I leave a good foundation whatever I do.... I just honestly don't see why this urethane silver birch will not go on the E-coat good, unless I miss the "e-coat etch-window" and fail at that point. Cause I would imagine that urethane color coat could slip and slide all over that fine e-coat if left too smooth...

Lastly, I do get the feeling that being able to see imperfections in e-coat will be close to impossible, and that lightening with primer and then seeing the action of a DA is applied really creates some reveal so to speak. I will say this hood does look really good to the eye and maybe I could eyeball it out as true or not. Its the fender I am worried most about, but then again the silver birch will start to tell the tale and I can work that out as long as caught before any clear coat dousing..?? Just speculating here so correct me where possible. please.
.
Thanks in advance.. I appreciate you knowledge and patience with me..

NFT5 wrote:
BBC333 wrote: Is there a line dryer that you can recommend to just stick in-line that will suffice?


There are reasonable quality filters and dessicant dryers available, although not necessarily cheap. You'll need 10-15m of hose before the filter/dryer to get most of the moisture to condense and then another 10m of nice, clean hose between that and your gun. Brands vary but a few members here can recommend some that will be available over there.

BBC333 wrote:I see it looks like the flow control is a new option on the Iwata?? Do you recommend with or without. Or is that not a new concept for this gun?


The gun originally came with the air control and they deleted it as a lower cost option. But now the difference is only about $6, IIRC, so might as well get it.

BBC333 wrote:Is the high build primer just not going to go thru a 1.3?


Probably not. A 1.8mm tip is much better. But you could cheap out on a primer gun, given that you'd be blocking it all back anyway. Unfortunately the AZ3 isn't sold with multiple setups and they're nearly as expensive as a whole gun to buy. The FLG5 is a little better in this regard, but not a lot - very occasionally there are multiple setup deals on offer, but of course, never when you want to buy.

BBC333 wrote:IS THAT OK to put lacquer acrylic primer on a new e-coat and under the urethane base?


I've done it, and not had a problem, but it's not recommended. I know 2K primer is expensive and you can usually only get it in larger (4 litre) tins, but it's the better alternative.

BBC333 wrote:Does all this look good to clean and mix with no dangerous reactions.?


What I said above but I'll leave it to the local guys to talk about local brand recommendations.

BBC333 wrote:I am thinking 400 scotch pad for e-coat prep for primer, wait 30mins after last primer coat and maybe I can get away with 800 scotch pad for base prep after high build application if primer lays down good? Then up to 3 coats of base and then up to 3 coats clear with appropriate flash times observed.? No sanding between base coats or clear unless forced..


Even I wouldn't try to do base over primer, especially high build, using wet on wet method. You can do it over a single coat sealer, but high build needs to be blocked smooth and level.

Some use the red Scotch pads over e-coat, I use the grey, but scuffed very thoroughly. E-coat is very thin - I wouldn't use anything that was in the order of P400, unless I was doing a coat of epoxy for some reason. The fastest curing 2K primer I have takes at least an hour before being ready to sand. UV primers are much quicker at just a few seconds, but you have to buy the special UV light and use guns with UV blocking cups.

If your primer is the right shade then 2 coats of base should be more than enough. I rarely, maybe once or twice a year, put on 3 coats of clear. In my opinion, if I can't lay down clear that, apart from a little denibbing, is equivalent to OEM standard, then I shouldn't be charging for what I do. It's very expensive stuff to just sand and polish off.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 5:30 am
BBC333 wrote: My question there would be is 1500-2000 buffing required on urethane base coats prior to urethane clear.?


No, never sand the base coat before clear. If you want to clear over a 2K Direct Gloss (pointless exercise IMHO, but we've had this discussion before) then let it dry, then sand and clear. P1500 should be fine for that.

BBC333 wrote:On mult-base coat coloar applications like this, am I relying on the gun to spray the base correctly, and then move straight into clear still wet but a little past final base coat Flash?? And then the clear brings it all to finish given no orange peel or blisters?


That colour (Silver Birch) was used by Holden here so I've done quite a few. I don't understand quite what you mean by "multi base coat colour applications". It's just a silver. Put on two coats over your sanded primer or sealer, then clear.

Base should be allowed to flash until it's completely dull. Depending on the weather that's 10 to 30 minutes. It's better to spray base in more light coats than one or two, or heaven forbid, three heavy ones. It should look completely flat and dull before applying clear.

If you spray base too thick and heavy you risk solvent pop and peel in base can be seen through the clear. Not to mention that the thicker coats allow the metal flake to sink deeper in the layer, changing the colour or tone.

BBC333 wrote:I Think I heard you say always seal over primer before color coat


Nope, not me. I'm an advocate of tinting primer to suit the base being applied over it. It's why I have two tins of primer - one nearly white and the other a very dark grey. Using a sealer under primer isn't always a bad thing, but using one of the wrong shade can change the way your colour looks.

BBC333 wrote:(did I misunderstand in thinking that "wet coating" is repeat coating at flash times?)


I suspect so. Wet coats are individual coats that are wet.

Wet on wet (WoW) is where you spray different products with only the time required for each to flash.
Chris



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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 7:36 pm
Thanks I am getting it. On the 1500 grit first question, I was trying to interpret what I read in the sanding sticky thank you for clarification.

Also when I said
multi base coat I mean multi COLOR coat. Sorry just too new to me the language.

So tinting primer it is for me should I decide to lighten the factory e-coat. Again I am not familiar with products I am reading as fast as I can.

Thank you for all your help

B



NFT5 wrote:
BBC333 wrote: My question there would be is 1500-2000 buffing required on urethane base coats prior to urethane clear.?


No, never sand the base coat before clear. If you want to clear over a 2K Direct Gloss (pointless exercise IMHO, but we've had this discussion before) then let it dry, then sand and clear. P1500 should be fine for that.

BBC333 wrote:On mult-base coat coloar applications like this, am I relying on the gun to spray the base correctly, and then move straight into clear still wet but a little past final base coat Flash?? And then the clear brings it all to finish given no orange peel or blisters?


That colour (Silver Birch) was used by Holden here so I've done quite a few. I don't understand quite what you mean by "multi base coat colour applications". It's just a silver. Put on two coats over your sanded primer or sealer, then clear.

Base should be allowed to flash until it's completely dull. Depending on the weather that's 10 to 30 minutes. It's better to spray base in more light coats than one or two, or heaven forbid, three heavy ones. It should look completely flat and dull before applying clear.

If you spray base too thick and heavy you risk solvent pop and peel in base can be seen through the clear. Not to mention that the thicker coats allow the metal flake to sink deeper in the layer, changing the colour or tone.

BBC333 wrote:I Think I heard you say always seal over primer before color coat


Nope, not me. I'm an advocate of tinting primer to suit the base being applied over it. It's why I have two tins of primer - one nearly white and the other a very dark grey. Using a sealer under primer isn't always a bad thing, but using one of the wrong shade can change the way your colour looks.

BBC333 wrote:(did I misunderstand in thinking that "wet coating" is repeat coating at flash times?)


I suspect so. Wet coats are individual coats that are wet.

Wet on wet (WoW) is where you spray different products with only the time required for each to flash.

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 8:37 pm
BBC333 wrote:So tinting primer it is for me should I decide to lighten the factory e-coat.


E-coats are usually black and, in my system at least, that colour calls for a mid-grey primer. So, if I had a grey primer, I'd just mix a slightly over-thinned batch and put on two light coats. Allow to dry, sand back as necessary and put the silver base coat on. Then clear and job's done.
Chris
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