Old Lacquer Paint keeps orange peeling

General Discussion. Make yourself at home...read, ask and answer!



Non-Lurker
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 1:35 pm

Country:
USA
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 2:50 pm
I have a garage queen (38 Ford, 340-6 pack) that I painted ~40 years ago with R-M's primer, Alpha-Cryl Acrylic Lacquer base and clearcoat.
I re-shot two panels using paint that was mixed at the same time. The panels were done at two separate times about 5 years apart.
These two panels have had a tendency to show signs of the orange peel or something similar reappearing every 3-5 years. The condition is most prominent on the hood (engine heat?), but also on the other panel (RR fender). Again, they were re-shot at different times ~ 5 years apart.
The condition will readily wet sand out, buff, and all is well for 3-5 years. The rest of the paint has done well.
My concern is with the repeated wet sanding's. I'm eventually going to bust through clear. Being an iridescent/metallic I really don't want to do that :shocked:
Everything was done under the same conditions, spray gun, pressures, filters etc. so I'm puzzled :?: If I recall I did 5 coats of base and 7 or the clear as the orange peel was a bit prominent and my thinking was I'd likely sand off two coats.

I am looking for thoughts as to what might have caused the problem but more so on how to proceed.
My thought is to use a wax and grease remover, a real light scuffing if necessary, shoot a panel with straight thinner to soften the topcoat, and then reshoot with 3-4 coats of clear.

Any thoughts? And TIA :beer:
Attachments
DSC03957.JPG
DSC03953.JPG
DSC03952.JPG
DSC03950.JPG

User avatar

Top Contributor
Posts: 3957
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:59 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Country:
USA
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 9:33 am
orange peel reappearing is a sign of solvents still escaping and the paint shrinks..
This is a huge issue with lacquer paints, they continue to dry for several weeks
and even months.
Best cure is long flash times while painting and allowing a long time to dry
before buffing, usually several days or more in hot weather.
And most of all, never put any wax on it for several months or it will
not dry completely for a long time.
JC.

(It's not custom painting-it's custom sanding)

User avatar

Top Contributor
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:46 am
Location: Canberra
Country:
Australia
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 6:57 pm
:goodpost: JC's nailed it, again.
Chris



Non-Lurker
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 1:35 pm

Country:
USA
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 8:25 pm
JCCLARK wrote:orange peel reappearing is a sign of solvents still escaping and the paint shrinks..
This is a huge issue with lacquer paints, they continue to dry for several weeks
and even months.
Best cure is long flash times while painting and allowing a long time to dry
before buffing, usually several days or more in hot weather.
And most of all, never put any wax on it for several months or it will
not dry completely for a long time.


First off thankyou for replying.
I can grasp the solvent theory but Even after 40 years??? I am not questioning you or your knowledge in anyway. But I would have thought any solvents would be long gone
by now, especially being lacquer. The paint is hard which again would make me think the solvents are up around Saturn by now :?
I may have waxed it prematurely can't be sure as it was 40 years ago and the RAM is getting a bit full LOL. I will say the rest of the car likely recieved the same treatment and products.
So, where does one go from here? I really don't want to reshoot the base as it is a perfect match not too mention may have changed a bit over the years.
What are your thoughts on softening the top coat(s) with staright thinner or really thinned clear and re clearing? Again it's lacquer so it will soften with lacquer thinner.
thanks again :goodjob:



No Turning Back
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:36 am

Country:
USA
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 7:12 am
I painted a 53 Merc around 1988, or so , in black nitrocellulose lacquer, over a HOK epoxy primer base. The car looked fantastic for many, many years, garage kept and maintained. When the owner bought a "new" show car, the Merc was relegated to being stored in an outside tent, with a car cover on it. Withing a few months, it had lots of tiny bubbles, or bumps in the paint, similar to yours. I can only guess that trapped moisture was the cause. COvered cars can absorb moisture, even water from the ground, evaporating up, and staying inside the cover.
I had another customer, with a HOK urethane Candy job, who wound up leaving it outside, under 2 covers, one soft, the other waterproof. His clear would be cloudy, when he pulled the cover off, but if sat in the sun for a couple hours, it would disappear. The cloudiness would not come off with polish or wax, if you tried it right after uncovering it.
So... is your car covered, or stuck inside without any climate control, or ventilation?

User avatar

Board Moderator
Posts: 6672
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:00 pm
Location: central Ohio
Country:
USA
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:11 am
Ohhh....did you catch that last question there.... really important about "what" that environment is like.... You do know this falls under "conservation" which a whole nother' world from restoration. I've spent the last 43 years doing both with furniture and cars. Softening that coating with lacquer thinner sounds easy enough but the lacquer thinner you may use now is a lot different than the old stuff. If you've got old thinner from the original shoots that's fine but you need to watch it with the newer stuff. It can be more aggressive and may cause some ruffling of that existing paint....
Metal, wood, fiberglass, we work it all... www.furniturephysicians.com We can restore the irreplaceable!



Non-Lurker
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 1:35 pm

Country:
USA
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 1:53 pm
I should reiterate this issue is ONLY on the Two panels that were re painted at separate times about 4-5 ? years apart. Everything using the same batch of paint compressor. filters and a new disposable filter at the gun. The rest of the car is fine.

The car has ALWAYS been inside with a cotton car cover that has no backing.
The first 11 or so years the car was in San Jose Ca. Since then in Omaha, ne
Climate controlled to a degree. Since being in Omaha, for a short period of time it was in my lower building which is insulated with a concrete floor and no leaks. Ceiling fans run in the summer to keep the air moving and the humidity down. While not temperature controlled the temperature change was gradual and never hit freezing temps.
The majority of the time both in Ca. and Ne. it has been in garages attached to the house, so again somewhat temp controlled.

And Darrel thank you for the heads up on the thinner, I will have to research that as I do not believe I have any of the original left.

So the question continues and I'm beginning to think it likely cannot be answered with any certainty at this time :(
My next question has to do with the spray gun. I have to original import gun used but also have a Sata Jet 3000 HVLP with a 1.3 tip that has never been used. I am wondering if this would be a good choice to use with with the lacquer?
thanks for all the responses :mrgreen:

User avatar

Top Contributor
Posts: 3957
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:59 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Country:
USA
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 2:39 pm
TJP440 wrote:[
First off thankyou for replying.
I can grasp the solvent theory but Even after 40 years??? I am not questioning you or your knowledge in anyway. But I would have thought any solvents would be long gone


I agree, shouldn't take that long.
But then again, you said the car was kept inside with a cover on it,
Did you recently have it out in the sun where it got hotter than ever before?
I don't have the answer, just guessing.
Could be something in the paint went bad so the second painting never
cured completely like the first.
If you figure it out I'd like to know :mrgreen:
JC.

(It's not custom painting-it's custom sanding)



Non-Lurker
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 1:35 pm

Country:
USA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:05 pm
It's seen it's share of sunshine over the years just never was a daily driver or left out over night except when at out of town car shows.
I just spoke with a youngin' at BASF who now owns R-M.
he advised stripping an repainting the entire car as they don't make anything compatible with the paint I have ( Thinner wise) and said he would question the paint itself despite the fact it's been stored in a temp controlled environment. So I'll do some research on the matter as I sure as BLIP don't anticipate repainting the entire car. I certainly do appreciate everyone's inputs and will keep you posted. It may be awhile though
:talkhand:

User avatar

Top Contributor
Posts: 3957
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:59 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Country:
USA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:16 pm
If the paint is in good shape and you are only concerned about
breaking through with future buffings, I say wet sand it with 800
or 1000 and if you don't break through add more clear coats.
You can do that with lacquer paint, lacquer clear will melt in on its own
no matter how old it is, lacquer dissolves very fast with lacquer thinner.
Spraying lacquer clear over existing lacquer clear or color makes it all one coat
in a way, it all melts together.
Sometimes that's an advantage with lacquers, they are easy to work with.
JC.

(It's not custom painting-it's custom sanding)
Next

Return to Body and Paint

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], magee84, NFT5 and 120 guests