newbie weird results

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:21 pm
BINGO! The klean Strip lacquer thinner is most likely what's causing your problem. lacquer will attack most undercoats like you have. the s/s primer you have may very well be ok WITH the right reducer. BUT a 2 part primer is much better especially in a situation like you have.( unknown undercoats). a good rule to follow is to never use lacquer on anything that you don't know what the substrate is. another good rule is don't use lacquer thinner for anything but to clean your gun. unless your doing a bare metal up lacquer job.
Jay D.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:22 pm
There's a bit of guesswork happening in this thread and the old urban myth about 1K primer has reared its ugly head again.

Thinner, or reducer (same thing just different names) in solvent paint has a single function and that is to enable the paint to be transported, by the spray gun, to the panel and then to assist the paint to lay down flat. After that it's no longer needed and, ideally, should evaporate away as quickly as possible, allowing the paint to cure/dry as necessary.

There is no question that using the correct reducer (or thinner) will help achieve better results. That said, at some stages in the painting process reducers can be interchanged. Experienced painters generally know which - for example I wouldn't even try to use a 1K reducer in 2K clear, but using a 2K reducer in acrylic colour or clear can actually be better than even the premium 1K reducer and using a 1K reducer in 2K primer can be done so long as some consideration is given to ambient temperatures.

In the situation outlined in this thread, however, the reducer is not the major contributor to the problem. Looking at the photo the "wrinkling" (we call it frying up) is generally across the panel, more severe in some spots. This tells me that we have a problem with the reducer in the top coat attacking the substrate. Now this can happen in rings around repair areas where a (usually 2K, not 1K) primer has been exposed in the feathering process, but when it happens in large areas it's almost always because the substrate is not properly cured. It also happens when 2K paints that do not use isocyanate are used, but that isn't the case here. What also contributes to fry ups is applying the next coat too wet or too thick, a problem compounded by low temperatures where the thinner doesn't evaporate quickly enough and the ever occurring issue with inexperienced painters thinking that more is better.

DarrelK identified this correctly, noting that the temperatures were way too low to allow curing to complete, maybe even to properly initialise.

Ideally that panel needs to be baked at 60C for an hour or so but OP probably doesn't have those facilities so it needs to be at a temperature of around 25C for at least 24 hours, preferably 2-3 days. In the sun would be best so that the warmth can penetrate and initiate the curing process down deep. Then sand and respray in temperatures not less than 20C.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 8:22 pm
i have to disagree, thinners and reducers ARE NOT THE SAME. we hear this all the time. its different terminology used in different country's. here in the US thinner is just that thinner, its used to thin lacquer paint products of the old days. reducers are to reduce urethanes, enamels and so on. the OPs problem is that most likely the flat black was an enamel. then no one knows what was under that. then he sprays the primer mixed 1-1 with lacquer thinner, and at a lower than normal temperature. this results in very slow evaporation of the lacquer thinner so you get what you got, the lacquer thinner lifted the enamel black and posibly anything under it. might as well shot paint remover on it. :rotfl: as stated in my other post lacquer thinner should never been used on this project, when you don't know what the substrate is, your just asking for problems.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2024 6:51 pm
badsix wrote: thinner is just that thinner, its used to thin lacquer paint products of the old days. reducers are to reduce urethanes, enamels and so on


I used to think the same. But, since the advent of waterborne paints, the terminology has changed and "thinner/thinners" is now used for all non-waterborne solvent paints (acrylic/urethane etc) while "reducer" is used for waterborne basecoats and primers.

It's taken a few years but the move has been pretty much world-wide (including the US), with only a few countries and some smaller paint companies/divisions still hanging on to the old terminology.

Thinners1.jpg


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Deltron_thinners.jpg


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MaxMeyerClearThinner.jpg


badsix wrote:then he sprays the primer mixed 1-1 with lacquer thinner, and at a lower than normal temperature. this results in very slow evaporation of the lacquer thinner so you get what you got


We agree on this. :wink:

An enamel substrate isn't always automatically the base for a fail. It depends on the type of enamel and age. I've painted over enamel quite successfully. Enamel and acrylic (most basecoats) are certainly not compatible in the liquid stage. Ever tried (intentionally or accidentally) mixing acrylic thinner into enamel paint? Might as well use water. Just doesn't work. But...... there are some enamels which actually specify an acrylic thinner. They're usually the fast dry ones but go figure.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:59 pm
Welp, this very educational thread brought to you by a complete newbie :)

Seriously folks, thanks for taking the time to listen and trust that what I've provided is accurate info. I agree that the temps were likely too low to allow proper curing, but it's also important to fully read the info on the products you are using. I may have wasted $100-150 in paint supplies so far, but I'm getting more confident that it's more of a science, not an art (at least this type of work) and that if you follow the rules you can do it pretty well.

I did some sanding of the wrinkled areas and exposed a sublayer of what looks like aligator skin, so sanded a bit further to get that smooth. I will reattempt this when I can control temps a bit better (it's north carolina, so that could be tomorrow or in a month, you never know).



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:10 pm
you'll want to get ALL that bad paint off. then KEEP the lacquer thinner away from it ( use it to clean your gun). if it was me doing this, i would strip all the paint off. be warned that some reducers for base coats, 2k primers can also cause lifting of week substrates especially around broken edges of the finish. your just playing Russian Roulette with what you have!
Jay D.
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