Silicon Bronze MIG brazing

More of an art than a science - discuss metalworking and welding here.



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:57 am
Now try it in free air? Not clamped down to the piece of wood or a welding bench which acts as a Heat sink.

Performing welds on thin gauge steel on a bench and in Free air are two different things.
Not a Hater just pointing things out.
At any rate Grinding down mild steel Mig weld and Plannishing it is no fun, Most Mig bead will crack while its being plannished.

The Thread has kinda sorta gotten off topic with the addition of Mild steel Mig weld.


Silicon Bronze is a Viable option on thin gauge mild Steel. While it is being used more and more on today's new cars its also a Viable option for panel repairs, although I am not convinced that using a Mig is the only way to go or the correct application method for Panel repair.

If anyone knows a Good cheap source for a Spool of it I would be willing to pick some up and give it a whirl in my machine although I would also have to pick up a New liner for my Torch and a set of drive rollers for the stuff that's not a problem.
I have wanted to put it in my arsenal for a while.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:56 pm
Doright wrote:Now try it in free air? Not clamped down to the piece of wood or a welding bench which acts as a Heat sink.


Doright makes a valid point. However...with all do respect, it's a weak point.
This was about learning, and the little heat sink offered by the wood was minimal, I wasn't smelling smoke? The aluminum bar was to help hold flat while tacking. Reviewing the pictures it offer no heat sink while welding.
I certainly didn't put much effort into the effort. Nor with this effort.

But...I went out and did it again. Same WFS but I bumped the voltage to three.
IMG_5244.JPG

Fitting up was quick and dirty but in free air.
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Welds were quick fast and hot. One after another I didn't worry about looks as much as quick and fast. I did burn through and a few times was squeezing and releasing where the gap blew thru.
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The under side show the result of excessive melt thru and "penetration".
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"At any rate Grinding down mild steel Mig weld and Plannishing it is no fun, Most Mig bead will crack while its being plannished."

This is a whole different topic of conversation which I might mention I'm willing to discuss further, in depth, and another time. Suffice to say that hardness in a weld deposit is a variable on a number of factors, cooling rate is one of those factors. Not magic or rocket science, it's both. That's a combination of chemical and mechanical properties changing as a result of heat input during welding and cooling. Again, my point for understanding to a greater depth of knowledge what those knobs and dials do amongst other things.

"The Thread has kinda sorta gotten off topic with the addition of Mild steel Mig weld."

Respectfully, I disagree. The fundamentals of welding exist and cross the board regardless of wire type. My suggestion was discover what each variable does, what it effects and how to manipulate the variables. My WFS never changed but I went from 1 to 3 in voltage? Same material but the weld changed in both appearance, and heat input. Our friend was on the right path. I offered a cheap way to shorten the curve?

" Silicon Bronze is a Viable option on thin gauge mild Steel. While it is being used more and more on today's new cars its also a Viable option for panel repairs, although I am not convinced that using a Mig is the only way to go or the correct application method for Panel repair."

I agree. Not saying it's easier however? But let me ask you why?
Why would industry choose to adapt to this product? HSLA steels. Steels with chemical and mechanical properties ruined, altered, changed or destroyed by heat.
Now... I think from the many pictures I've posted, I've established hopefully that there is more to the picture if you look close enough at the details of the picture. Many ways to skin a cat, sharper the knife easier, the job becomes. I went from 1 to 3 on voltage, which do you think had a more detrimental effect to the steel?

IMG_5799.JPG


Did I mention I'm pretty good with oxy fuel as well? There's a reason some are doctors and some are surgeons. But the rule is, do no harm. Which is my point. It's cheaper to practice on cadavers then the real thing.


"New liner for my Torch and a set of drive rollers for the stuff that's not a problem.
I have wanted to put it in my arsenal for a while."

Probably not required actually. The wire is firm enough to be fed with "V" rollers typical of solid wire. "U" for soft would work but your not going to squish the stuff, or need traction of a knurled roller like you would for flux cored. It's also stiff so feeding isn't usually an issue unless over a long gun length and small wire size.


Free air? Only with a compressor, even then, air isn't free. LOL. I remember when it was given more or less away though. :rotfl:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:15 pm
Hey no prob dude
I feel the issues at hand and I get that you have a lot of Welding experience, What type and on what I have no idea and frankly it doesn't matter.

You can be just as Proud of your Mig welds as You like to be! I can Weld the stuff with a Mig too! who cares????
I bet I can Mig the Silicon Bronze Just as well with a Bit of practice first, Fact is You haven't in a Long time or not at all welded with the stuff yourself or you wouldn't have been trying to buy some to demo it. Great for you for looking into it though!
I looked into it some time ago 2 or more years ago, I too declined to buy it myself as Buying it for Tig was much cheaper! And I was just getting into Tig welding so why not?
I find Tig is much easier for me any way, I started with Gas and I am a much better Gas welder anyway Tig came easy for me.
A Mig has it place, Welding Thin sheet metal isn't one of them in my opinion.

Suggestions by Miller
Separate liner = I don't wont the contamination issues so I will listen to them.
Separate drive rollers = Miller suggests it so I will listen to them
Miller says the welding technique for Welding Silicon Bronze is the same.

No problem your a Pro I have to go with what Miller says I am a settings Guy I guess I go with what Miller says for Basic set up and adjust from there but don't make any Big adjustments I find Miller gets me into Ballpark pretty much every time.

Now if you have a Problem with that Take it up over at Miller welds . c o m
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:32 pm
Ron Covell had a great article a few years ago on using silicon bronze, I wish I could find it to copy and paste, but I can`t locate it, the one thing he did mentioned was NOT welding using a butt weld or anything in a high stress area, but for body panels its great , as it melts at around 1800 deg as compared to 2700 for steel

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:48 am
Doright wrote:Hey no prob dude
I feel the issues at hand and I get that you have a lot of Welding experience, What type and on what I have no idea and frankly it doesn't matter.

You can be just as Proud of your Mig welds as You like to be! I can Weld the stuff with a Mig too! who cares????
I bet I can Mig the Silicon Bronze Just as well with a Bit of practice first, Fact is You haven't in a Long time or not at all welded with the stuff yourself or you wouldn't have been trying to buy some to demo it. Great for you for looking into it though!
I looked into it some time ago 2 or more years ago, I too declined to buy it myself as Buying it for Tig was much cheaper! And I was just getting into Tig welding so why not?
I find Tig is much easier for me any way, I started with Gas and I am a much better Gas welder anyway Tig came easy for me.
A Mig has it place, Welding Thin sheet metal isn't one of them in my opinion.

Suggestions by Miller
Separate liner = I don't wont the contamination issues so I will listen to them.
Separate drive rollers = Miller suggests it so I will listen to them
Miller says the welding technique for Welding Silicon Bronze is the same.

No problem your a Pro I have to go with what Miller says I am a settings Guy I guess I go with what Miller says for Basic set up and adjust from there but don't make any Big adjustments I find Miller gets me into Ballpark pretty much every time.

Now if you have a Problem with that Take it up over at Miller welds . c o m


Some take a can of tomato soup and add a can of water. Some add a can of milk instead. Some mix it 50/50.
Now I'm not going to argue with Miller? What's the point of that? They like Campbells sell a product. However, the Amercian Welding Society...they evaulate and govern to some degree the welding soup industry, or standardize the results expected from it.


I'm going to go out and buy a roll. I suggest you do the same. We can post the results? Let the pictures decide? And since we both have GTAW silicon bronze, I'll be back in a day or so with more pictures, you do the same.


Edited for inclusion and follow up.

Order Number: 113-6209049-9188208
Blue Demon ERCuSi-A X .030 X 2LB Spool Welding Wire will be shipped to noel chyz by Amazon.com.
Estimated delivery: Jan. 24, 2019

I placed my order, but we'll have to wait a bit for the results. :goodjob:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:47 pm
Noel
I will keep this simple polite and too the point.

I am not interested in any sort of competition to who is the better welder, Painter, body man, mechanic, or Machinist with you or anyone else.

Personally I feel its a tad bit offensive as I feel I am being challenged to prove my opinions, knowledge, experience and Talent and that's not what this forum is all about.

If you feel or know my posts or anyone else's contain incorrect information or a better way to do something please state why and post the information clearly and to the point!

Posts do not need to be written in any comical expression! Just short sweet and to the point.
This forum is to share information.

With that said I am off to Vegas to buy some Steel.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:24 pm
IMG_5251.JPG


1/8" diameter Silicon bronze GTAW x3, also an inch with ER-70S-6 filler and about the same without. The purpose of presentation is 1) follow thru I what I said I'd do. 2) to display a bit of what I bring to the table for knowledge, skills, and with the equipment I have available to display my abilities. 3) to display a bench mark for comparison, for improvement, advancement, and hope someone does better because of it?

It isn't about who's a better welder, stroking ego's, or proving a point. It's striving to do better. So if your up to doing better, run a few beads on some scrap, show the world and lets do better. I surely didn't learn this from one person, one book, or in one day.

So...how could I have done better? More current/less current? Tighter arc length? Longer? How about a gas lens? Smaller wire? Smaller tungsten? Change the tungsten angle? Smaller rod amounts more frequently? More gas, less gas? Sharper eyes and steadier hands? I can tell you in lengthy dirty boring detail how each of those effects something. But I did it quick and fast. Worked with what I had. By most accounts the results were acceptable?

Another couple three weeks I'll have a roll of ERCuSi-A, delivered to the door. When I get that roll, I'll post results. Because truth be told, I haven't used that wire. I assume however, somewhere between a solid steel, stainless steel, aluminum, flux core/self shielded, which I have used, it's going to go from solid to liquid and following some quick adjustments I'll be controlling the mushy state of droplets of a silcon bronze wire.

"Posts do not need to be written in any comical expression! Just short sweet and to the point."

Doesn't that just put a kibosh to free speech?
No, I disagree.
Short, sweet, to the point.

I like comical expression. "shake like a dog pooping a razor blade", that does it for me? "enough grapes hanging to make wine?", how about...who cares what it looks like when it's ground down?

I say if you want serious read a book, you want flavor, talk to people. I talk to all types. My experience has been however, that those who memorize the book don't always know how to apply the knowledge they've read? Comical expression helps that? It's animated thinking? So that's why I do it, and doubt my responses will change for that reason.

I will however consider it's message, my usage, and the context of use in future posts. But no promises.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:06 pm
]
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The cheapest roll of silicon bronze wire I could find on Amazon arrived. Sooner then expected.

Not having used this wire, and with the goal of making it happen, I removed the solid wire and installed the small spool of Silicon Bronze in it's place.

IMG_5271.JPG


Off the hop, the wire didn't feed worth a crap. I found the single "V" groove drive roll and bearing idler was one issue, not gripping the wire well enough to pull/push consistently. A larger wire then .030 would have helped I'm sure, and a smaller diameter mostly likely have been nothing but grief.

Some of that could have been the pull from the drive motor it self? I noticed a complete lack of wire feed speed adjustment which could be a indicator of a future problem?

While I never noticed a problem with solid steel wire feeding poorly, or causing a lack of WFS adjustment, the drive roll motor didn't offer a variable speed in trying to adjust WFS.
Tightening the tension helped some what, to clamp down the wire in the groove, but not enough to overcome the roll dragging/ locking up on the spindle stopping the feeding of wire off the roll. As well, excess pressure preventing the turning of the drive roll motor?

Pulling the roll off and adding a washer behind it freed it enough from binding to allow it's rolling of wire, but the spool it self tended to feed poorly. While some of that I attributed to cast and helix of the wire, and stiffness of the wire, it still fed off the spool poorly, tending to pinch between the uncoiling rings of wire due in part to poor tension control.
On a low WFS setting, with limited tension it would just spin, increasing tension, it wouldn't turn the drive wheel. Maxing the WFS with an increased tension would however feed wire.

Although I used the same liner, I bumped up to a .035 contact tip, the .030 matching the wire size seemed to be dragging on the wire. Low end wire, liner friction, wire swell exiting the tip? A larger tip helped. Thru a 10 foot cable, installing a Teflon liner may have been of further benefit as well in reducing friction pushing wire that distance.

IMG_5274.JPG


This was the back side of the coupons tacked together, and things were showing improvement, but not as improved as I thought it should be? I found on the 2nd voltage tap of 4, and wire speed jacked to max, it was starting to become presentable?

Not wanting to tack more coupons together I figured I did enough. Grabbing a chunk of scrap I snaked one for good measure.
IMG_5272.JPG


Is it doable, yup. Was it worth the effort? Not to me it wasn't? But I can say from experience, that my experience made the curve of running it easier. :wink:

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Final picture shows the extent of my effort. A little waste, a little welding. Nothing caught fire and while the little bit of practice didn't hurt, more practice, and fixing the WFS issue should yield still better results, uniformly and consistently.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:22 am
I had welder issues. The issue was poor WFS drive roll feed torque.
IMG_5355.JPG

I discovered a lack of dielectric grease proved a problem in pulling out the gun.
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Call it dissimilar metal galvanic corrosion, caused by a lack of being maintained? I cleaned it up, greased it up, good to go again.
IMG_5363.JPG

While I notice what appears to still be a electrical issue, fault me for knowing more, I'll be taking the board out to replace a couple of parts I know little about past simple understanding. But for lack of a better explanation, I expect changing these will results in a similar situation as changing out a worn cam shaft.

These welds were done with a 75/25 mix. They look a little sooty, they didn't flow, they didn't get as fluid a droplet. More tolerant of a larger gap perhaps?
IMG_5397.JPG

I mentioned early on about discovering what things do. Well, the pictures show variable changes. Some were voltage step changes, others one voltage step and up down changes to WFS.
And if you wondered about doing Aluminum...I didn't put forth much effort here, and I mentioned worn cam shaft...but I proved you could.

It's a learning curve.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:16 pm
Ha!

You guys are way over thinking this for me. Need to dial it down to, yes it's worth trying Silicon Bronze wire or no, it's not worth the time and effort.

I'm still struggling with steel wire so not looking for another challenge or a PHD in the welding process. :rotfl:
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