Rotted hinge pillar

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:33 pm
New here and to body work in general. Looking for some advice on a rotted out hinge pillar.

I inherited a project 1968 Oldsmobile Delmont 88 convertible and I am planning to do as much as I can to help save some money and learn how fix my own stuff. There is a little bit of rust here and there on the car, normal stuff like rotted out metal at the lowest points behind the rear wheels, bottom of door, behind trim pieces, etc and those I think are simple enough to figure out how to repair with patch panels, etc. The worst area, I have no clue how to tackle and need some advice on how to do it, since it effects both door hinge pillars.

I've not yet removed any sheet metal from the car since I need to address an intake leak first and get it running better, but by end of Summer I should be ready to start taking it apart and doing body work. Until then, I'd like to get all my info on the repairs sorted out so things go smooth and actually get completed.

First off, all the sheet metal looks pretty straight on this car and the rust areas seem localized, but what do i know until it gets stripped. Front door gaps look pretty even except for the driver's door which seems to sag a tad at the top - don't think it's related to the pillar, but possibly a worn bushing in the hinge since it's the driver door, dunno yet. I've tried flexing both doors while open and see no movement on the pillar, which tells me they are structurally ok for some reason and I may get by with patching only the lower portion which is rusted through. Passenger hinge pillar looks worse than the driver's side, I poked around and snapped some closer pics. Neither side appears to have spread to adjoining sheet metal, like the rockers to the rear or forward into the firewall/cowl - guessing that the windshield area drained through this piece and the drain was clogged, hence the rust only in that pillar?

General rust areas:
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Pillar rust area:
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one of the few pics i found online of this section exposed on this body style:
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OK, so in my research the only vehicles which share this door hinge pillar and firewall/cowl section are the 1967-68 Oldsmobile 88s -- of course nobody makes reproduction panels for these either (none that I have found) and finding a donor has proven rare as well. I should mention that I do have a 2nd parts car, but the hinge pillar is something I do not want to remove from this car since it's complete and could possibly be restored too, it only has one bad rear fender and the rest of the car even may have slightly less rust than the one I'm working on. Removing the pillar will obviously make it a junker afterward.

I have located a small handful of these cars in a salvage yards, but they want $500 minimum, plus shipping for these two pillars. I have not yet received any quotes from body shops for this repair because I can't drive the car by for an estimate in person.

Hoping someone can give some insight on this and provide some thoughts on the difficulty of this for a newb like myself. If you were to do it, what would you charge for these two pillars? Should I just pay up and buy the parts from a yard?

I do have a small Lincoln 140 with CO2 and am willing to buy clamps, hammer/dolly sets, grinders, etc to fix it up. Not sure if I'd need special tools like a sheet metal brake or any other fabrication tools.

For the reepair I was thinking remove all surrounding rocker covers, upholstery, interior panel. Remove door and front fender. Grind off old paint with flap disc or buy small Harbor Freight blaster. Reform new steel to same shape, the new piece would need to have a sleeve welded inside the solid section of pillar. cut out old piece and weld it all together. Beyond that I don't know how to deal with stuff like the rust I might find inside the pillar and keeping it at bay for the future. Unknown?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:30 pm
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that rust problem is way more severe that what it appears on the surface.
You will need to remove the doors, front fenders, door hinges, rocker panel trim, carpet, dash pad, etc. to gain access.
Then you will need to drill out any spot welds and cut out the rusted portion of the metal.
In cases like this you will find the substructure is rotted out and will also need to be replaced as well. So basically you will need to rebuild this area on your car.
1968 Coronet R/T


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:10 pm
yes, i completely understand this - what i don't get is HOW to go about doing it.
- would a cutoff disc and sawzall be the tools of choice in cutting it open?
- i'd assume lots of surface rust inside - how would i go about removing it and keep it from spreading later on? spray in some rust converter, then follow up with a weld-through primer?
- how do i physically form this piece of steel - one piece or can I splice several sections together?

i have never done anything like this before, what type of substructure should i expect to find inside of this pillar? can I assume that what I see rust on is not the main structural section of the pillar, that it's the facade and the substructure inside/behind is what actually give strength to the area?

does the dash really need to come out for this one? metal is pretty solid above the lower hinge, observed by poking with a nife, and is pretty far away from the dash, maybe 8" or so.

if I were to take this to a shop, what would I expect to pay?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:46 pm
First of all, do you have the equipment to do the job?
MIG welder, spot weld cutter, grinder, cutoff tool, clamps, etc.? A metal brake would help since you will be making your own patches.

There will be spot welds along the seams that need to be drilled out. Then you can use a rotary cut off tool to make a horizontal cut in the clean metal. All of this is not as easy as it sounds unfortunately. You won't know the extent of the rust until you get inside. Rocker panel may need patching too.

Great learning project but you need to make up your mind now to do this right. If you do not get that rust out it will continue to eat away at the metal.

Here's a picture of a mustang with the outside cut off:
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Cleaned up:
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The inside was epoxy primed and then the hinge nut supports primed and installed and finally the outside is welded on:
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Ready for primer and paint:
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Disclaimer: these pictures are not of my work but they give you an idea of the job ahead of you.
1968 Coronet R/T


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:34 am
thanks for the pic reference. that actually helps a lot. know where i can find more pics of this type of repair?

for tools i do have a Lincoln 140 mig and basic tools, sawzall, grinders, small air compressor, etc. there's a Harbor Freight a block away from me, so i can pick up any clamps and a small brake if necessary. the only metal work i've really done in the past has been with new steel making sculpture, offroad bumpers and some furniture items, but no rust repair at all except for on a huge kids wagon i patched a rotted corner on.

i get the idea of taking the whole front off to gain access behind for cleanup - but what i don't get is how you get it perfectly placed when you reinstall, so the hinge mounts don't change position in any plane. that's why i thought i could do a horizontal cut at the lowest point possible, leaving the actual hinge mounts somewhat intact, while i add in my new steel below.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:43 pm
Generally, I take photos of everything assembled and step by step through the disassembling process making detailed notes of hole positions, body, lines, and critical items.
Experience has shown me these projects can take a lot longer than what you think they will and your memory just isn't as reliable as pictures and detailed notes.
Think carefully about your plan and then go for it. Obviously its a major undertaking for a beginner but we all have to start somewhere.
1968 Coronet R/T


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:08 am
For that repair I would replace Whole upper and lower rocker panel as one piece.
And I would also get the body on a rotisserie first
Loose the co2 get Argon gas mix

Also your gonna find a lot more rust in that one get the rotisserie you'll be able to sell easy if you never use it again.

This is not a Car for faint of heart you got a long hard road ahead of ya but old Olds convertibles are worth the effort not many left around.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:47 am
Here is that repair on a 67 GTO. I know there was a change over on the bodies in 1968, but this may be helpful. I didn't read or even look closely at it, so I can't comment on the quality of the repair, but the pictures may help you. Keep in mind that the rust is coming through from the inside and all you can see is what has come all the way through, so be prepared to find the metal much worse than you expect.


http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails? ... abshop.com

Bracing is very important, especially on convertibles when doing repairs like this. Found these on the web.



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:47 am
If you do end up taking on this project, make sure you measure everything before you start cutting or even removing some of the parts.

I like to use several reference points that can be duplicated with the repair. Screw holes, hinge mounting points, cut-outs, pressings, etc. make good references.

When you support and brace the car, you also want to measure again to make sure nothing has shifted while moving/bracing. I made adjustable braces for one project using a bolt welded in one side and a nut in the other so I could put enough tension on the pillar to hold it in place.

I am not very familiar with those cars, but you might want to check on some of the Olds forums for those models to see if any other cars might share the same A-pillars.
You might get in luck and find a few more readily available models that would have pillars you could salvage.

If you have to fab by hand, you can make wood bucks and hammer forge the parts into shape. You can "brake" small pieces with a bench vise and a pipe wrench. Clamp one end in the vise, then clamp 2 pieces of metal around the section to brake and fold it over with a pipe wrench. I have had a sheet metal shop (for gutters) brake 12 foot sections for me for a lot less than the cost of a HF metal brake.

A bench vise, hammer and dolly set, and a few basic hand tools can fab most small panels. Its only the larger sections that need a brake, English Wheel, and other large tools.
Search on Youtube for "metal shaping" and you will find all kinds of videos for making parts by hand. :)



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:16 pm
appreciate the responses.
so you guys think I need to take off the rockers too and put the car on a rotisserie for this repair? do these two sections intersect internally, so that any water coming down the pillar goes into the rocker, or would the pillar be a straight shot downward? i understand the need to brace everything if the rocker gets removed, but if it doesn't, will I still need the cross braces if removing the pillar only?

i've been on the hunt to find cars in salvage yards that have what i need. i've found a few this week and have inquired, but they haven't gotten back to me with condition and pricing of what they have. it almost seems like they're uninterested because it's not a simple part to deal with, like a fender. the ones that have given me pricing want a good chunk of money for the pillars ($300/ea + shipping is the cheapest -- is this a good price?). the ONLY cars that share this same A pillar are the 1967-68 Oldsmobile 88s and 98s, since they share the same cowl, firewall, cowl extension and pillar. would really like to know what a shop would charge so i can decide which option is best for the expense.

i can try and get a 2nd bottle for a mixed gas on my welder. i'd been using CO2 because it's just a little 140 mig and i needed a little more penetration for the things i was making previously. if it's merely to keep down on splatter, i'm going to be sanding/grinding anyways so what does it matter?

a little bit about the car:
would love to put the car on a rotisserie, but hesitate going this route straight away. i mean this car deserves the attention and expenditures out of sentimental value since it was my dads for the past 20+yrs and i would like to finish the project in his honor. I know it's just money and don't cry over spilled milk -- but in the last 2 years before he died, he spent $15k on this car and though I don't know a whole lot about restoration, i know you can make that kind of money go pretty far compared to the return i'm seeing in this project, and it makes me fairly upset.

they met a neighbor who supposedly used to own a restoration shop for 20yrs. after messing with it in the garage they decided to contract him and task him with getting it running and driving again, mainly engine, supsension and brakes. over the 2yrs the guy had it at his property, where he has about 50 classic cars. he became SUPER flaky in the past year and took his time with some items, which is ok - but when you don't answer or return calls and then give excuses (some were legit, but still) you start getting frustrated. also i don't believe half of what he said about what he did, and he still hasn't provided me a simple list of what he did on the car - said he woke up the engine with some performance mods (cam, pistons, big block heads, etc etc), but when I spoke to the machine shop yesterday (because i've been trying to get my hands on the engine build sheet that should have come with the bill to the restorer) and they said it was simply a stock rebuild and no performance stuff, otherwise they'd have suggested just swap in a 455 olds because it's more bang for the buck vs putting money into a 350 olds...and it doesn't run very good of course because it's got some major tuning issues that need to be addressed and the car stalls during tip in under load. also the guy rebuilt the suspension and put disc brakes on it - then why do the brakes suck and the suspension feel like there are no shocks? am i going to have to take everything apart and redo it in fear of not being able to stop and because steering is so loose you feel like you're gonna lose it? dunno even what parts he used on the custom stuff like brakes since there aren't any kits for disc brakes on these cars... on top of that, the guy will not return calls or respond to the dozens of attempts of contact, just so i can get a simple 5min list of what he actually did to the car. very very very very frustrating :knockout:
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