Welding Trouble/Patch Panels

More of an art than a science - discuss metalworking and welding here.



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:06 pm
Need some advice please. I’m welding in floorboard patch panels on my 75 Ramcharger. Trouble is I keep blowing through the original sheet metal. I have my mig welder turned down as low as it will go and have fiddled with wire speed, faster wire seems to help a little. I’m using 75/25 shielding gas. What steps would y’all recommend, is there anything I can do? I don’t have a TIG, would that yield better results?

Thanks,

TXPower

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:38 pm
TXPower wrote:Need some advice please. I’m welding in floorboard patch panels on my 75 Ramcharger. Trouble is I keep blowing through the original sheet metal. I have my mig welder turned down as low as it will go and have fiddled with wire speed, faster wire seems to help a little. I’m using 75/25 shielding gas. What steps would y’all recommend, is there anything I can do? I don’t have a TIG, would that yield better results?

Thanks,

TXPower


I'm going to ponder a response while you post some pictures. :bored:
There's a limit of 5 per post. Sometime you just have to post twice to post a few more?
Reminds me of opening up a Playboy magazine and not finding a centerfold? Where's the money shot?

You got ugly...I have a solution. :talkhand: Turning your head and looking a way, lots of grinding, black paint and under coating. Or learn why your having the problem and fix it/correct what causes it to occur.
I've also recently posted a bunch of helpful stuff if you do some back reading. Others as well.
I'm waiting for pictures. Photo spread stuff. I promise not to laugh or snicker. :wink:
As for the Tig question..."would that yield better results?". **** I'm going to say no. It would yield different results. Paying by the hour, more expensive results.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:02 pm
So here are some pics. You will notice the rust on the original metal, I’m grinding it off before I begin each time. It’s thin but doesn’t seem thin enough to be having the problem I’m experiencing. You will see the area I am trying to repair is the fooorboard under driver seat all the way to where feet rest in sitting position. The pic with my fingers is at a compound bend where the portion of the floor that is the seat mount base and transmission tunnel come together. My upper finger in the pic is designating original metal and the lower, new metal I used to create that complex bend. All along the line where I am trying to weld them together is the problem area. And then the close up pics with my finger tip depicts the area that just keeps blowing out and the other pic is a another hole created while welding typical of what I’m dealing with. Once I get this sorted, I have a large floorboard piece I’ll weld in but had to create that small compound curve patch first.

Pics in backward order, sorry.

Edit: forgot to mention, the two weld pocks in the one photo was me checking to see if a bead could be welded to the old metal without melting through.


Thoughts, advice?

Thanks,
TXPower
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:10 pm
Welcome to the forum
Welding Thin Auto sheet metal is not easy no matter how its done Gas, Tig, or Mig.
Mig is my absolute Last choice personally but others use it successfully.

What kind of welding experience do you have? are you an experienced welder on other material? or did you just buy your welders?

You need to remove all the rust I would suggest Glass blasting the metal to clean it.
Or use a Good Flap wheel wire wheel or about a million other ways but it needs to be clean grease and oil free.

This is not all the cause of the Problem BUT anything welded together no matter the process used Has to be clean bright steel.
What kind of machines do you have? What settings are you using?
What kind of Joint are you trying to use? Over lap or But Joint?
Also a pic of your Failed beads Help diagnose as well.
Dennis Barnett
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:50 pm
“Welcome to the forum
Welding Thin Auto sheet metal is not easy no matter how its done Gas, Tig, or Mig.
Mig is my absolute Last choice personally but others use it successfully.”

“What kind of welding experience do you have? are you an experienced welder on other material? or did you just buy your welders?”

I consider myself to still be a “beginner welder” though I’ve been doing small welding projects for about 5 years. I’ve had my Hobart Handler 187 for the same amount of time.

“You need to remove all the rust I would suggest Glass blasting the metal to clean it.
Or use a Good Flap wheel wire wheel or about a million other ways but it needs to be clean grease and oil free.”

I’m grinding the metall to a shiny, clean well beyond where I’m actually welding before I begin. I am “butt” jointing it. I can’t show you a pic of a failed bead because it’s melting the original sheet metal as soon as I try and begin the weld. I had a little success by angling the torch tip close to parallel with the panels I’m trying to weld together and from there building up successive pools of electrode to close the holes created. But once I try and grind smooth it reveals holes where not enough material flowed into.

Here’s my rig and settings as I’ve currently been trying this.


“This is not all the cause of the Problem BUT anything welded together no matter the process used Has to be clean bright steel.
What kind of machines do you have? What settings are you using?
What kind of Joint are you trying to use? Over lap or But Joint?
Also a pic of your Failed beads Help diagnose as well.”

Doright,
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:31 pm
I'd say your getting where you want to go? Coming along.

The expression, "a dog chasing its tail". That's what comes to mind? I've been there. So here's how to solve it.

First off, solid to liquid. Your getting to much liquid. You need more solid.
I know...what in God's green earth am I talking about? Too much Liquid?

Ok...take your breakfast cereal, poor it in a bowl and start adding milk. Stop when you add to much?
Now, think of how much more crunch you'll have with less milk. Too much liquid.

Say you added to much milk, no big deal, add more crunch. Or drain away the milk.
Metal eroded thin thru oxidation corrosion is just that, thinner. I'd like to say thinner the flake the quicker it gets soggy. That's only partially true. The reason why is kind of obvious, yet not thought out, it's the amount of milk. Ha!
But hey...welding to the thinner pieces requires some adaptation.
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Here's one, stop. That's the hardest to master.
But stopping is the first step.
Added to much milk, quit pouring. Leave it an hour for the flakes to swell and it'll look solid? But yes, stopping.
IMG_2356.JPG

Second. Remember building a house doesn't start with the first two by four it starts with a plan. If you know the area is weak you have to plan for it. Point to the good piece, let it take the heat and as the deoxidizes in the wire from you filler meet thinner rusty spot to be welded, you watch the plastic flow of metal tag it together. If it doesn't rule number one.
Let the metal roll. Like lava, it will flow. Take advantage of it. If it get to hot, too liquid, no longer mush but wet, running and falling, stop. Rule number one.
IMG_2357.JPG

Build on the good, getting it to flow. Again, dog chasing a tail, yes. Remember, metal is metal, some just thicker, some harder. And they make grinders for a reason.
You sculpt it. Grind flush/flat or leave it thick and round? Small amounts are easier then big ones but? I'm just saying, put it on grind it thin, put it on grind it thin. No harm no foul, it metal. You will rebuild the surface.
IMG_2360.JPG

You could also ask yourself, self...should I have replaced a bigger piece? That's the time when you go and lift the bowl, it slips thru your fingers and hit the counter, milk and flakes everywhere? Yup?


But hey...I grind stuff so I try and keep to a minimum weld size. Pulling a longer stick out narrows the arc width, the longer wire doesn't heat as much, thickening the weld pool. It builds better on it self.
Adding more wire feed speed does something different. Think of it this way, your falling from a 10' ladder, now fall faster.

Third...to much liquid. Not all my weld are pretty. What for? I'm going to grind them anyways? As far as it goes, when it comes down to it, I weld hotter, faster and more then I should. I'm sticking two pieces together not practicing to pass a test. If you can't thicken things up thru process controls and variables...stop. Rule number one.

Now I'm rambling on, because I'd be again not coming clean if I didn't mention wire size? That under rated moot point of minor interest is that flake. So ask your self...self, what get soggy quicker, one big flake or one little one? Depending on a number of things, factors...reaction time being one? Easier to melt less off of something large then control the amount you melt from something small? That make sense?

The money shot.
IMG_2629.JPG


I mentioned draining the milk away. Chill strips. Suck away the heat, provided backing to shape the bead that falls thru. Take the liquid to a solid quicker.
You've heard the expression about getting it together? Solid, mush, liquid. Easier to pack and shape a solid or a mush then the liquid.

My rule number four. It's ok to do things twice. That's the wonderful thing about metal. Cut it out and do it again. Or, weld it in and replace a another smaller piece?

I do hope my reply finds itself as a benefit to someone? :rotfl:

Hard to say? Hard to tell? But deep just the same maybe?



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:23 pm
TX POWER
Your metal in Not clean
What size wire are you using? what Gas setting are you using?
Dennis Barnett
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:55 pm
Doright wrote:TX POWER
Your metal in Not clean
What size wire are you using? what Gas setting are you using?


So my metal is inadequately clean?

I’m using ESAB SpoolArc Easy Grind in .025. Gas set at about 25.

Thx,

TXPower

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:21 am
https://weldtalk.hobartwelders.com/foru ... what/page2

Read #20...that's the long one. More you read, the dizzier you get Lol.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:57 am
I am gonna excuse myself from this thread have fun all.

Noel
That post made some sense actually. Not sure I buy it all but it kinda made sense.
Dennis Barnett
A&P Mechanic, FCC General radio Telephone Operator
Line Maintenance A&P Mechanic and MOC Tech specialist.
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