Welding Trouble/Patch Panels

More of an art than a science - discuss metalworking and welding here.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:56 pm
noelc wrote:I'd say your getting where you want to go? Coming along.

The expression, "a dog chasing its tail". That's what comes to mind? I've been there. So here's how to solve it.

First off, solid to liquid. Your getting to much liquid. You need more solid.
I know...what in God's green earth am I talking about? Too much Liquid?

Ok...take your breakfast cereal, poor it in a bowl and start adding milk. Stop when you add to much?
Now, think of how much more crunch you'll have with less milk. Too much liquid.

Say you added to much milk, no big deal, add more crunch. Or drain away the milk.
Metal eroded thin thru oxidation corrosion is just that, thinner. I'd like to say thinner the flake the quicker it gets soggy. That's only partially true. The reason why is kind of obvious, yet not thought out, it's the amount of milk. Ha!
But hey...welding to the thinner pieces requires some adaptation.
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Here's one, stop. That's the hardest to master.
But stopping is the first step.
Added to much milk, quit pouring. Leave it an hour for the flakes to swell and it'll look solid? But yes, stopping.
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Second. Remember building a house doesn't start with the first two by four it starts with a plan. If you know the area is weak you have to plan for it. Point to the good piece, let it take the heat and as the deoxidizes in the wire from you filler meet thinner rusty spot to be welded, you watch the plastic flow of metal tag it together. If it doesn't rule number one.
Let the metal roll. Like lava, it will flow. Take advantage of it. If it get to hot, too liquid, no longer mush but wet, running and falling, stop. Rule number one.
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Build on the good, getting it to flow. Again, dog chasing a tail, yes. Remember, metal is metal, some just thicker, some harder. And they make grinders for a reason.
You sculpt it. Grind flush/flat or leave it thick and round? Small amounts are easier then big ones but? I'm just saying, put it on grind it thin, put it on grind it thin. No harm no foul, it metal. You will rebuild the surface.
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You could also ask yourself, self...should I have replaced a bigger piece? That's the time when you go and lift the bowl, it slips thru your fingers and hit the counter, milk and flakes everywhere? Yup?


But hey...I grind stuff so I try and keep to a minimum weld size. Pulling a longer stick out narrows the arc width, the longer wire doesn't heat as much, thickening the weld pool. It builds better on it self.
Adding more wire feed speed does something different. Think of it this way, your falling from a 10' ladder, now fall faster.

Third...to much liquid. Not all my weld are pretty. What for? I'm going to grind them anyways? As far as it goes, when it comes down to it, I weld hotter, faster and more then I should. I'm sticking two pieces together not practicing to pass a test. If you can't thicken things up thru process controls and variables...stop. Rule number one.

Now I'm rambling on, because I'd be again not coming clean if I didn't mention wire size? That under rated moot point of minor interest is that flake. So ask your self...self, what get soggy quicker, one big flake or one little one? Depending on a number of things, factors...reaction time being one? Easier to melt less off of something large then control the amount you melt from something small? That make sense?

The money shot.
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I mentioned draining the milk away. Chill strips. Suck away the heat, provided backing to shape the bead that falls thru. Take the liquid to a solid quicker.
You've heard the expression about getting it together? Solid, mush, liquid. Easier to pack and shape a solid or a mush then the liquid.

My rule number four. It's ok to do things twice. That's the wonderful thing about metal. Cut it out and do it again. Or, weld it in and replace a another smaller piece?

I do hope my reply finds itself as a benefit to someone? :rotfl:

Hard to say? Hard to tell? But deep just the same maybe?



NoelC, thank you for the responses. I understand your cereal explanation, wire speed and arc distance. I read the Hobart forum message you linked, which affirmed a lot of what you had already wrote to me. I'm a slow learner and visual learner so please be patient with me. From a practical standpoint are you suggesting I increase my wire speed more and move my torch tip back away from my target weld area thus "pulling a longer stick" , while pointing the wire more toward the new metal as I join old and new?

You mentioned oxidized metal gets thinner, I believe that is what I am fighting as I "chase my tail", because other spots on my project which show no rust I have no trouble welding in those spots.

Also, yes, I guess I could look for better metal and move beyond where I cutout originally and cut more away. I was trying to cut as little as possible while staying as close to the factory look as possible using manufactured replica floor-pan patches. I do not have the specialty tools (metal stretcher/shrinker/english wheel)necessary for forming such complex angles/curves involved in my current repair area. But then, I guess if its not working why continue this way? I have been giving this a great deal of thought and have resolved that, as long as the floorboard replacement works it doesn't have to have the factory curves. I could just buy a large sheet metal sheet; measure, cut and use a metal break to create angles instead of worrying with arcs and complex bends. This could also be done to fab the trans tunnel. In the end as long as the floorboard and trans tunnel heights are correct, the rest doesn't matter as much. Thoughts?


I will take the welding suggestions from you and Doright and see if my progress improves.


Thanks,

TXPower

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:51 pm
NoelC, thank you for the responses.

Your quite welcome. I'm just bringing to the table what I know a bit about, how I understand it to be, and do so in my own way of explanation.

I understand your cereal explanation, wire speed and arc distance.

Just trying to create a picture? Some abstract thinking? And maybe simple explanation towards a deeper concept of the relationship that exists?

I read the Hobart forum message you linked, which affirmed a lot of what you had already wrote to me.

I like to read. I do a lot of reading. I also tend to apply what I've read, test it's strength and make an informed choice based on that knowledge.

I'm a slow learner and visual learner so please be patient with me.

No pressure, no problem. While we all bring something to the buffet, I'm not a big fan of potato salad. And I chew slowly. I just came up with that cereal analogy. It wasn't meant to do more then give the reader, your self or another as something relatable to compare? Maybe it missed that mark?

From a practical standpoint are you suggesting I increase my wire speed more and move my torch tip back away from my target weld area thus "pulling a longer stick" , while pointing the wire more toward the new metal as I join old and new?

Yes and no. What I'm say is the more thought you give to what each change, adjustment, action does, the greater your understanding will be how to react to it's occurrence and the results of doing so. It's not right or wrong as much better or worse.

You mentioned oxidized metal gets thinner, I believe that is what I am fighting as I "chase my tail", because other spots on my project which show no rust I have no trouble welding in those spots.

Road gets a pot hole they don't just rip the road up, they fill the hole. But yea, thinner it is the more control it takes, the inverse is the thicker it is the less control it takes.

Also, yes, I guess I could look for better metal and move beyond where I cutout originally and cut more away. I was trying to cut as little as possible while staying as close to the factory look as possible using manufactured replica floor-pan patches.

One to ten. Pick a number. Some will say replace the whole floor pan? A ten. Some would say, screw down a chunk of tin and undercoat the crap out of it. A functioning one?


I do not have the specialty tools (metal stretcher/shrinker/english wheel)necessary for forming such complex angles/curves involved in my current repair area. But then, I guess if its not working why continue this way?

See above. I've mentioned In a previous post before using smaller pieces to make a complicated one? The English wheel is a bit over rated when you can hammer and dolly, but tools are a time saver. I recently acquired the shrinker stretcher so this was my first use of it. Practice is all it takes.
Accept your limitation and the results. No harm no foul. Do the best you can with what you have and push ahead. Fit for purpose. But...if you can do thing better, why not try? And that you are.


I have been giving this a great deal of thought and have resolved that, as long as the floorboard replacement works it doesn't have to have the factory curves. I could just buy a large sheet metal sheet; measure, cut and use a metal break to create angles instead of worrying with arcs and complex bends. This could also be done to fab the trans tunnel. In the end as long as the floorboard and trans tunnel heights are correct, the rest doesn't matter as much. Thoughts?

Yes, you could buy a large sheet and make your own. Some might not agree who some might also put forth a greater effort in keep originality, but at the end of the day, you will learn something. That grows into something better the next time.

I will take the welding suggestions from you and Doright and see if my progress improves.

You will learn from all of us and inspite of us. So will the lurkers.
It's not right or wrong as much your progress improving. We won't always agree, have the same opinion or belief nor see things the same way, but if it's about learning, then it's all good.


Thanks,
Your welcome.
TXPower[/quote][/quote]

In another post I attached a picture of some books. Let me tell you, this welding...it's as simple or as complicated as you choose to make it. Just like you patching rusty floor boards, or me fixing a fender.

Yes... with a lack of modesty, I know this welding stuff. I may not explain it all that well but...I try?
I can say with certainty, that in short circuit metal transfer the wire comes out, hits the plate, current surges, electrons travel, gas is ionized, magnetic fields build up and pinch a droplet. How often/frequent and to what size will be variables of voltage, wire feed speed, power source out put characteristics, shielding gas, nozzle diameter, gas flow, joint geometry, stick out and material type, mostly.

I can also say, the silicon bronze wire mentioned in another post is non magnetic. How that one small moot point effects it's weld parameters, deposition rates and characteristics, why argon gas is used for shielding...Just saying?

All I'm trying to do is pass along some understanding of the principles and variables to the application, and how they might be applied in my own special way of explanation?

You ever milk a cow? Grab a teat, squeeze and pull. Pinching droplets or streaming milk. Same thing, just different. Good teachers don't give answers. They help you find them.
And the best part, I know I'm succeeding. Why, because your thinking about it. Plant a seed, give it some water and wait for a tree. All in good time.


Final word...no such thing as a bad weld. If it meets or exceeds the requirements, it's considered a sound weld. That's not opinion that's a fact Jack.

You are doing good. I'm sure as you progress you're going to be doing much better and thinking, I've got this good now I should go back and replace that section? You probably won't, but you will be thinking it.

I posted pictures of a repair to an old ford fender. Hmm? Some wouldn't be proud to show that effort?
But I was peacock proud. Full feathers.
Not as good as some, maybe with more experience, better equipment, more time to spend, but better them those who don't try at all.

The best part is, never having done so before, I'm learning something new and getting better as well. But I knew welding going in, so the learning curve was lessened. The welding went quicker as a result of that experience.
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A repop was $750USD, I had 4 crappy ones and could afford to waste two practicing...I'm just saying, if you do the math, it's all numbers.
One to ten, ground down, covered in filler, under a coat of paint it's gets harder to tell?
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I wasn't planning on spending hours on end hammering/dolling, pik and filing. And it's yet to have filler applied. I'd say it came out looking pretty darn good for a dumb welder's attempt at fixing what most would have struggled with? Fit for purpose.
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If the purpose is show car quality, drop the money on a repop fender and be done with it? Honestly, the car was a pig. But I had spare parts.
Most would have parted it out and scrapped the rest. Fenders were rusted, missing pieces, cracked, fatigued. Did I ruin it? Did I save it? Hard to say?
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Anyhow...Context 3 and 4, if your hungry It's welding gibberish being served?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Met ... _262443882

Keep up the good work. keep a strain on and keep making steps forward. It will keep getting better and easier.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:50 pm
I'm a bit of a newbie welder myself but I've done a trunk floor and lower quarter panel with butt welds and here are some tips that have helped me.

Make sure the metal is 100% clean.

Don't allow any burrs on the metal. If you cut or grind the metal and leave even the smallest burrs on the edges, they'll get super hot and cause you to burn through easily. You have to grind the burrs off but now you run the risk of grinding the edge of the panel where you want to weld down to thinner than it needs to be and it makes it easier to burn through that as well. You have to take your time with this process.

If the old side is clean but chewed up by rust, you're going to have a hard time welding it. Sometimes you have to go further up the panel than you'd like even if the metal there doesn't have holes. It's still weak from the rust.

If you have no other choice, then point the wire at the "good" side and try and drag it over to the bad side with the majority of time spent on the good side to keep from burning through. Now you have your new tack weld and it's thicker than both sides and you can build on that. Use your new weld to build on as you go down because it's a lot tougher to burn through that new weld than it is the old chewed up metal. Just remember to go slow because it'll warp the sheet metal if you don't let it cool first. It's a slow process. Ideally you'd space each tack weld out evenly to keep the panel cool but sometimes the metal doesn't allow for that and you have to go slower and use your previous welds to help keep the heat down on your new welds.

Use a piece of copper on the back side of the butt weld. This helps keep the area cooler. I bought one of those copper spoons but I also have a short copper tube that I flattened out and I'll clamp that to the back side of the metal when I'm welding. This helps immensely.

Play with the settings on your welder and practice but don't grab two super clean pieces of sheetmetal and dial your welder in that way because you just dialed it in to weld two perfect pieces together. Not one perfect piece and one far from perfect piece which is what the real world is a lot of the time. Find a good piece of metal and a slightly chewed up piece of metal and dial it in that way so you're practicing in more of a real world environment.
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