AutoBody101.com

tomsteve wrote:

Notsoep wrote:

DarrelK wrote:Dupli-color paint and then clear.

this gets into sumthin i dont know about, but duplicolor lacquer or enamel?

if it was a lacquer would that make a difference?

It is the cheapest paint (well almost) but as I said I am not going for a showroom paint.
Just wanted this car to be 1 color! It even looks fairly good without cutting but I know it can shine. The sides of the roof that go down by the door glass are really a showroom gloss and came out well.

Notsoep wrote:OK, but on the hood I think it is a little messed up by now in a couple spots, if I wanted to just use 600 to kill the clear on it then hit it with 1 or 2 layers of paint then 4-5 of clear again would this be OK? (Would I need a layer of primer between old paint and new since paint is actually only a month old?)
Then after it dried, you say hit it with 1500 (by hand wet block sand I guess) then 200 etc... afterwards hit it with the buffer.

Other than identify the brand, you haven't actually said what kind of paint you used. However, your reference to cheapest, and the look in your photos, leads me to think that it was acrylic lacquer. That and the facts that you used 45psi (even at the compressor), one of those cheap guns and laid on 5 coats of clear without recreating Niagara Falls. By themselves, all these factors are not ingredients in a recipe for disaster, but add a little inexperience and they all add together.

Acrylic lacquer, despite being eschewed here, can produce some amazingly good finishes. But, it needs a bit more technique than two pack urethanes where the higher propensity to flow out leads to nice wet finishes with peel that can be fairly easily addressed. That's one of the reasons it's used almost exclusively in production refinish.

So, let's have a bit of a look at what you have. You say the turret came out pretty good, as did cant rails and pillars. Do you know why? My guess is that the roof, being higher, was more difficult to hold the gun further away which is what you did with the bonnet.

Acrylic lacquer dries fast. So fast that in the right (or wrong) conditions it can be almost dry before it even hits the panel. Too much air and holding the gun too far away are the usual culprits. A too fast reducer will make it even worse. When I look at your phoros the finish isn't smooth and wet, but, rather, open and dry, like all those little droplets of paint , although kind of stuck to each other, are still separate.

Can this be fixed? Of course! With five coats of clear you should have more than enough build to be able to sand back the top couple of coats, getting rid of any peel in the process, but hopefully getting down to where the thinner in the clear wasn't able to flash off so quickly and all those little droplets fused together into one nice wet layer.

If you can do this, then go through the grits and buff you should not need to respray. The alternative is to just put 2 nice wet coats over the top. No need for primer and just cut back with 1200 - acrylic clear will melt into the layer underneath anyway so you'll get really good adhesion.

Unless you actually break through the clear when sanding there is no reason to respray base.

Other than identify the brand, you haven't actually said what kind of paint you used. However, your reference to cheapest, and the look in your photos, leads me to think that it was acrylic lacquer. That and the facts that you used 45psi (even at the compressor), one of those cheap guns and laid on 5 coats of clear without recreating Niagara Falls. By themselves, all these factors are not ingredients in a recipe for disaster, but add a little inexperience and they all add together.

Acrylic lacquer, despite being eschewed here, can produce some amazingly good finishes. But, it needs a bit more technique than two pack urethanes where the higher propensity to flow out leads to nice wet finishes with peel that can be fairly easily addressed. That's one of the reasons it's used almost exclusively in production refinish.

So, let's have a bit of a look at what you have. You say the turret came out pretty good, as did cant rails and pillars. Do you know why? My guess is that the roof, being higher, was more difficult to hold the gun further away which is what you did with the bonnet.

Acrylic lacquer dries fast. So fast that in the right (or wrong) conditions it can be almost dry before it even hits the panel. Too much air and holding the gun too far away are the usual culprits. A too fast reducer will make it even worse. When I look at your phoros the finish isn't smooth and wet, but, rather, open and dry, like all those little droplets of paint , although kind of stuck to each other, are still separate.

Can this be fixed? Of course! With five coats of clear you should have more than enough build to be able to sand back the top couple of coats, getting rid of any peel in the process, but hopefully getting down to where the thinner in the clear wasn't able to flash off so quickly and all those little droplets fused together into one nice wet layer.

If you can do this, then go through the grits and buff you should not need to respray. The alternative is to just put 2 nice wet coats over the top. No need for primer and just cut back with 1200 - acrylic clear will melt into the layer underneath anyway so you'll get really good adhesion.

Unless you actually break through the clear when sanding there is no reason to respray base.[/quote]


Didn't know Dupli-color made anything else. But here is what it says
Paint Shop is a high quality lacquer system (I know it is cheap despite the description)
The gun said 45 is what is needed to spray, I can go higher, or lower, I have a decent compressor. But inexperience is my downfall.
So if you think if I just go through the grits I can possibly salvage this?
I did do a test and took 200 grit on the hood but with a palm sander (I know I know!) and then did the compound and so far over night it did not turn back to white like before so I will rinse it off with water and see if it does but it is looking promising so far. I did a test spot on the door to see as well. I think I may have burned through a small spot on the hood though but I can fix that later.

You mentioned just add 2 coats of wet no need for primer....did you mean 2 wet coats of paint or just 2 more coats of clear?

Notsoep wrote:I did do a test and took 200 grit on the hood but with a palm sander

Did you use 200 or did you mean 2000?

Notsoep wrote:You mentioned just add 2 coats of wet no need for primer....did you mean 2 wet coats of paint or just 2 more coats of clear?

If you haven't cut through the clear then just two wet coats of clear will give you a nice smooth wet surface. Being acrylic it will melt into what's already there.

I sue 28psi as a starting point for most guns. HVLP ( I only have one, fortunately) needs to drop to =<20psi while some of the older HVHP guns need a bit more at around 35psi. You'd do much better to have a regulator/gauge on your gun. That way you can adjust more accurately and fine tune easily.

Hold your gun about 150mm from the panel and adjust your speed to get a closed, wet coat. On a practice panel (or your trailer) make a pass that is about 1m in length. This should take about 3 seconds - count as you go: one thousand and one, one thousand and two, one thousand and three. If you get runs back off a little or increase speed. Every painter and every gun is a little different so take these just as starting points.

NFT5 wrote:

Notsoep wrote:I did do a test and took 200 grit on the hood but with a palm sander

Did you use 200 or did you mean 2000?

Notsoep wrote:You mentioned just add 2 coats of wet no need for primer....did you mean 2 wet coats of paint or just 2 more coats of clear?

If you haven't cut through the clear then just two wet coats of clear will give you a nice smooth wet surface. Being acrylic it will melt into what's already there.

I sue 28psi as a starting point for most guns. HVLP ( I only have one, fortunately) needs to drop to =<20psi while some of the older HVHP guns need a bit more at around 35psi. You'd do much better to have a regulator/gauge on your gun. That way you can adjust more accurately and fine tune easily.

Hold your gun about 150mm from the panel and adjust your speed to get a closed, wet coat. On a practice panel (or your trailer) make a pass that is about 1m in length. This should take about 3 seconds - count as you go: one thousand and one, one thousand and two, one thousand and three. If you get runs back off a little or increase speed. Every painter and every gun is a little different so take these just as starting points.

(Yes, I meant 2000..sorry)
OK, I will test a spot with more clear and see what happens for a respray.
It is looking better but I see some of the sanding marks still so I need to remove those first, or will the new clear 'melt' into those evenly?
I will use lower pressure, but I was just going off what i read, I have 2 pressure adjusts.
1 for the tank and another for the air flow out so I can control that.

This is very Bad very heavy Orange peel, Gun to far away pressure is also not right list goes on.
I would sand this all down with 600 maybe even 400 yes very course paper! The idea is to remove ALL the Hi areas to get down to the Pits in the Peal so there are no more pits in it NOT to try to dress it out with 2000 its way beyond what can be done with 2000 unless you want to kill your arms and a lot of paper.
Can or could this be saved? Maybe But you still need to get more aggressive with your sanding and even then how much clear would be left for buffing?

If it were me After its blocked flat with 600 with a good hard block I would Respray the Clear.
IT's Very important NOT to sand into Base color! If you do its a whole other process to fix.
Don't worry about Sanding scratch in the Clear, fresh clear will cover it.

Shoot the Clear as you want it to look, Slick and wet. Yes it can Run so Keep moving don't be afraid of Gravity fixing runs is part of the game.
Its a Dance between DAM that looks nice and AH SH!

Another thing Try to only do ONE wet coat on your respray putting down a second heavy wet coat Will result in Runs some where usually always does.
The reason being the first one has sand scratch to hold onto the second coat doesn't!
So the second coat cant be as heavy as the first but still Wet and slick looking, It takes Practice like I said above its a dance. Also you don't need more than two coats.



This image shows heavy Orange peel but not as bad as the hood in the pic above.
No need to use 600 on this but still sand it nice and flat with a hard block and 1200 would be my choice.

Just Curious But in that first Pic whats going on with the Air Scoop why does it look like its still got the old fading peeling clear on it?
I see you didn't remove door handles, door locks, Glass, trim molding's, either before spraying. A lot of work and a lot of money spent on materials to do the job half way.



I have seen very nice jobs done with the Harbor freight Purple gun so I wont blame it although it is known to be an Air hog.
I will however have to ask about your about your Air compressor????
What size is it? how big is the Pump? how many CFM ? How big is the Tank? The Tank size really isn't all that important Pump CFM is.

Are you running air filters? where is you regulator at? are you running water drier? what type? and where is it located at in your system? is it a Desiccant snake or one of those ball type you put on at the base of the Gun? or one that hangs on the wall?
Do you have an air gauge at the base of the gun??? VERY IMPORTANT! if your running those ball type desiccant driers at the base of the gun it should be placed before your air gauge!
Another important fact some of these types of filters have very limited air flow no matter how many PSI you put through it it still wont allow the air gun to work properly! The package should say how much CFM they will flow.

If your compressor is fully charged and you pull your trigger on your Gun How long does it take for the compressor to kick on????????????????? Then how long does it take to shut off? at what pressure is this happening? These settings are adjustable!

Spraying a car Can be done with a small compressor BUT it is not recommended!
If your running out of air you HAVE TO STOP SPRAYING and WAIT for the compressor to catch up!!!!!!
Its my guess that you were running out of air and your compressor couldn't keep up with the demand you were putting on it. While the Gun was still spraying and sounded ok the gun wasn't atomizing the material the same as when you first set it up with compressor fully charged, continuing to run the gun without consistent air pressure results in inconsistent atomization of the material resulting in a type of mess you have now.

Doright wrote:


This is very Bad very heavy Orange peel, Gun to far away pressure is also not right list goes on.
I would sand this all down with 600 maybe even 400 yes very course paper! The idea is to remove ALL the Hi areas to get down to the Pits in the Peal so there are no more pits in it NOT to try to dress it out with 2000 its way beyond what can be done with 2000 unless you want to kill your arms and a lot of paper.
Can or could this be saved? Maybe But you still need to get more aggressive with your sanding and even then how much clear would be left for buffing?

If it were me After its blocked flat with 600 with a good hard block I would Respray the Clear.
IT's Very important NOT to sand into Base color! If you do its a whole other process to fix.
Don't worry about Sanding scratch in the Clear, fresh clear will cover it.

Shoot the Clear as you want it to look, Slick and wet. Yes it can Run so Keep moving don't be afraid of Gravity fixing runs is part of the game.
Its a Dance between DAM that looks nice and AH SH!

Another thing Try to only do ONE wet coat on your respray putting down a second heavy wet coat Will result in Runs some where usually always does.
The reason being the first one has sand scratch to hold onto the second coat doesn't!
So the second coat cant be as heavy as the first but still Wet and slick looking, It takes Practice like I said above its a dance.


This image shows heavy Orange peel but not as bad as the hood in the pic above.
No need to use 600 on this but still sand it nice and flat with a hard block and 1200 would be my choice.

Just Curious But in that first Pic whats going on with the Air Scoop why does it look like its still got the old fading peeling clear on it?
I see you didn't remove door handles, door locks, Glass, trim molding's, either before spraying. A lot of work and a lot of money spent on materials to do the job half way.



I have seen very nice jobs done with the Harbor freight Purple gun so I wont blame it although it is known to be an Air hog.
I will however have to ask about your about your Air compressor????
What size is it? how big is the Pump? how many CFM ? How big is the Tank? The Tank size really isn't all that important Pump CFM is.

Are you running air filters? where is you regulator at? are you running water drier? what type? and where is it located at in your system? is it a Desiccant snake or one of those ball type you put on at the base of the Gun? or one that hangs on the wall?
Do you have an air gauge at the base of the gun??? VERY IMPORTANT! if your running those ball type desiccant driers at the base of the gun it should be placed before your air gauge!

If your compressor is fully charged and you pull your trigger on your Gun How long does it take for the compressor to kick on?????????????????

Spraying a car Can be done with a small compressor BUT it is not recommended! If your running out of air you HAVE TO STOP SPRAYING and WAIT for the compressor to catch up!!!!!!

The fake air scoop is still wet, I dried the main part with a towel to get pictures faster.
I went down to 1000 grit n the door, then 1500 then 2000 (on a test spot near the top edge) looks nice, not show room but again, I don't care, this car is not worth that at all!
The hood I did the same thing for in a small spot and the white is gone, even looks a little metallic and shiny so all the advice i have gotten has helped me understand what and how to fix it.
So I might respray clear on the hood but I think the rest fenders and doors can be 800 or 1000 to start and be OK.
I am not worried about the windows or door handles etc
I did tape them off for the painting but forgot for the primer stage! The windows need removed anyway since the electronics inside need reworked and I can clean it up then.

The compressor is a Harbor freight of course, but I can spray the entire hood at 45psi and it won't kick on. I forget the size but is a big one on rollers. It does keep up but if it does kick on I do wait for ti to fill up, I know that much! Ideally what pressure SHOULD I respray at? The other research shows the HF gun needs a little more pressure than what you should use if using a pro gun. most say between 35-45 and not 20-30.

I realize your trying to do this on the cheap, I realize this is probably your first try at Painting a whole car, its not an easy job or cheap.

I also realize I have asked you a lot of questions that you may think are UN-important BUT THEY ARE! Please answer all????????
While you may think that your compressor is big enough its really not!!!!!

I asked you a lot of questions, mostly pertain to your available air flow and what affects it. I am NOT concerned with the PSI ! its your CFM or FLOW that is important!
Your PSI can be rock solid steady but air flow or CFM that will fluctuate or maybe not enough at all!!!

Again please answer questions in my post If not for me for the next inexperienced guy reading this so they can learn. Pictures of the equipment will help identify it you cant find the information.

I realize others have said to sand in steps 1000 1200 1500 and 2000 maybe not those exact grits BUT Sanding in steps is not the way to go for some one inexperienced such as yourself, if your gonna Buff it.
Because Getting out all the previous sanding scratch out of the clear before moving on to finer grits is very hard for the inexperienced person and will show when compounding and polishing. Its difficult for some one who knows what the heck they are doing!

IF the rest of the car is like the door just Stick with sanding out the Orange peel with Just 1200 grit followed by a Good compound designed to remove 1200 grit sand scratch and a Wool pad follow that with foam pad and a swirl remover. It will be less work and you'll have an easier time getting decent results.

As Far as what other have told you about what PSI to spray at or what others have said what pressure to use with the Harbor freight gun FORGET what others say Learn how to adjust the gun for the material being sprayed!!!!!!
Use the recommended air pressure on your Tech sheet as a starting point and adjust the gun as needed!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjRvajwCznY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDuuJvyiZiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dXZOMHsx_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTSPSiJuxZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_9WQmicyJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coZ6NA-KJdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDk-pJWrJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWx13bKNiEM

I will post this one just to show you how to take the gun apart clean and reassemble 'But he doesn't show how to adjust it properly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYBIdm2waxk

Clear & Orange peel why Play with your gun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-MimyH3fKY

I appreciate all the advice on the previous post!!
It helped a lot if you see pics below!

I do not mean to abandon my last topic but since it is no longer white like before I thought I could use just a little more advice then I can close this out since I am so close!
So I did several passes using a DA in this order.
1000->1500->2000 (should I go to 2500?)

And now the hood is not white anymore like it was before.
So should I shoot some clear on this or should I just sand a little more?
It doesn't show in the pictures but almost half the hood is actually metallic shiny now. Almost to the point i am about to just say call it a day and move so really have to be close to fixing it!
(If i have to spray clear again, scuff it with a scotch brite pad and use some prep cleaner then spray? I do not want to have to buy more clear but if its for the best I will)
(Ignore the burn through on the fake vent, they pop out and I am repainting them black anyway)
(Reference, what it looked like BEFORE!)

Doright wrote:I realize your trying to do this on the cheap, I realize this is probably your first try at Painting a whole car, its not an easy job or cheap.

I also realize I have asked you a lot of questions that you may think are UN-important BUT THEY ARE! Please answer all????????
While you may think that your compressor is big enough its really not!!!!!

I asked you a lot of questions, mostly pertain to your available air flow and what affects it. I am NOT concerned with the PSI ! its your CFM or FLOW that is important!
Your PSI can be rock solid steady but air flow or CFM that will fluctuate or maybe not enough at all!!!

Again please answer questions in my post If not for me for the next inexperienced guy reading this so they can learn. Pictures of the equipment will help identify it you cant find the information.

I realize others have said to sand in steps 1000 1200 1500 and 2000 maybe not those exact grits BUT Sanding in steps is not the way to go for some one inexperienced such as yourself, if your gonna Buff it.
Because Getting out all the previous sanding scratch out of the clear before moving on to finer grits is very hard for the inexperienced person and will show when compounding and polishing. Its difficult for some one who knows what the heck they are doing!

IF the rest of the car is like the door just Stick with sanding out the Orange peel with Just 1200 grit followed by a Good compound designed to remove 1200 grit sand scratch and a Wool pad follow that with foam pad and a swirl remover. It will be less work and you'll have an easier time getting decent results.

As Far as what other have told you about what PSI to spray at or what others have said what pressure to use with the Harbor freight gun FORGET what others say Learn how to adjust the gun for the material being sprayed!!!!!!
Use the recommended air pressure on your Tech sheet as a starting point and adjust the gun as needed!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjRvajwCznY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDuuJvyiZiI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dXZOMHsx_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTSPSiJuxZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_9WQmicyJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coZ6NA-KJdo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDk-pJWrJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWx13bKNiEM

I will post this one just to show you how to take the gun apart clean and reassemble 'But he doesn't show how to adjust it properly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYBIdm2waxk

Clear & Orange peel why Play with your gun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-MimyH3fKY

Condescending much?
I know you are trying to help, or think you are but your help is more of an attack.
I think you forgot that EVERYONE that started painting was an idiot at one time. You have to start somewhere and for never having done it before, I don't think it was too bad, the paint is actually smooth, so the only issue IS the clear coat and that is a somewhat easy fix once I get the right direction, so I take everyones advice so far and decide on a course of action.
I posted a new thread since it is almost fixed now and no longer nasty white.

To answer your question about my compressor etc, yes, it is enough since I painted in stages, only the hood and front fender. Then the roof then the doors then fenders so I wasn't painting long enough for the compressor to even have to kick on.
2.5 HP, 21 gallon 125 PSI
Is that enough for a shop? no. Is it enough to paint a car? no. Is it enough to paint a hood? YES.

Did I make mistakes in painting, of course but you don't need to make it sound like OMG how could he do that.
Why? Is sanding that technical> The rough side goes towards the surface right?
I know how to clean my gun as well, it is no different than my airbrush.

EDIT:
You may not have meant it but your post did come across as a bit rude and know it all instead of totally helpful. Do not take my reply wrong, but you make feel that way then you did it that way. I am not trying to start a 'flame war' or anything. I appreciate your comments but please be a little more nicer, like hey have you seen these videos, they might help. You might want to try just using 1200 and sanding down and not going through all the grits etc...there are better ways than making it seem like I am stupid.