Primer color for Dark Red's

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:33 pm
DarrelK wrote:So I've just been wondering about this for a few years.....Is there a general "trend" toward more "transparency" in the newer basecoats???? And if so, what's the thinking or tech. behind it?


Very much so.

When Toyota were building the Camry here they were using just 400ml of basecoat on each car. Now most painters would use that on a couple of panels but Toyota are very cost conscious and this saved them a lot of money. To get the colour they used a solid ground coat under that barely applied effect coat and that is the reason why nearly every Camry you see, that's had a bar resprayed, has the bar much darker/deeper than the adjoining body panels.

JCCLARK wrote:If your primer is making a difference to your final color,
then you're not putting enough color on it, period!


No, mate, the trick these days is to match the effect and you can only do this by using the correct shade of primer, or a ground coat, as above.

This was a discussion I had with ODG a number of times but he was resolute in his thinking. It was right 20 years ago, but not today.

DarrelK wrote:Exactly.... if this "trend" continues/expands I can see a lot of newbies to this biz/hobby shooting themselves in the foot quite a bit trying to figure out "where" in their paint package they went wrong. Okay, so this.....currently in a new, new, new, paint code is their a specific reference to a particular primer color/shade????


Not just newbies. A lot of painters too. When you look up a paint formula in most paint systems it will give you the Value Shade that is appropriate for that variant. Because they formulate the variants differently, the correct Value Shade can vary from one variant to the next, so that's yet another trap that we have to be wary of.

The science, and art, of painting has changed, particularly as we see the manufacturers chasing new and different effects. A good example is Mazda with their candy reds, but I've come across similar from other manufacturers as well, like the red in the Mustang and a similar colour on the Mondeo.

With colours like that you can't just slam it on. Each layer has to be exactly the right thickness or the colour won't match. New techniques, like blending tinted and untinted clear on the same coat with two guns are the kinds of things that have changed and allow us to match the factory colours.

The skill set in this trade continues to expand, each year. You might be able to apply every coat like it was glass but if you can't blend and match peel then there's not much place for you in the refinish industry. Obviously different for those just doing full resprays but even those customers are starting to look for different effects. Even an old style candy, if each coat isn't applied evenly, can look like crap or not be quite what the customer wanted.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:34 am
Dark Red Metallics = dark grey sealer or black
light Red Solids = white
Yellow Solid = white
anything bright solid = white

for whatever reason the silver metallic in colors like darker sealers.

etc etc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:56 am
All of this is great information. I have only done a couple of repairs for people where matching and blending were important.
Now I will turn away such repairs and stick with full repaints.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:57 pm
Yeah, even though I don't like to hear about more variables in paint systems I do feel better that at least my eyes aren't failing me. Just knowing that it is a growing trend helps me out.... Thanks for all the input!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:11 pm
A paint rep told me the colored primers were the idea of the of the auto manufacturers to get faster coverage and reduce paint costs. Looks like this practice is trickling down to the body shops.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 am
It's not a trickle. It's a wave of either do it or not get colors done right or at least blended right. I thought this was bad enough with "layering" on high end furniture. Feels like we are headed down that same path.....
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:54 am
Call me a conspiracy nut if you like but I think the stealerships intentionally make things difficult so that it forces customers back to their high dollar service departments. :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:04 am
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........ :shocked:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:53 pm
'68 Coronet R/T wrote:Call me a conspiracy nut if you like but I think the stealerships intentionally make things difficult so that it forces customers back to their high dollar service departments


I don't think it has anything to do with the dealerships.

As far as mechanical and electrical are concerned you guys have legislated access to information, even if that comes at a cost. We have the situation that that legislation was trying to avoid, where information is kept secret - only available in the dealerships. But, while the dealerships do nothing to change the situation, it's generated by the manufacturers who are trying to keep the value in their dealership franchises by maximising profitability.

As far as body shop operations are concerned, very few dealerships here have their own paint and body departments. Their exorbitant labour rates mean that they simply can't survive in the open market and the captive market of their customer base isn't big enough while insurance work with its lower labour rates isn't available to them as a volume channel.

What has driven changes in techniques in refinishing comes from three areas. Firstly, insurance work which limits labour rates and times, requiring that the industry develop better techniques to be able to work within the constraints placed on them by insurance companies and, secondly, the development of ever increasingly complex colours by the manufacturers. A long way back were the introduction of metallics and then pearls but now we have a plethora of different sized flakes with a range of reflective qualities. Look at the high reflectivity aluminiums that are popular with Korean and Japanese manufacturers that come in a range of sizes. Then there are gold and copper metallics. In pearls, an ever increasing range of colours, plus pearls with extreme reflectivity, like xirallics.

What this means is that colour matching has become increasingly difficult and the paint companies have answered this with technologies like spectros. Seriously, 40 years ago, very few painters couldn't match a colour, without a formula, because there weren't so many tinters available and the colours on cars were simple - just a few tinters in each. Today we routinely have a dozen different tinters in every colour, plus variations in flake size and type. Mixing a colour, from scratch, is now next to impossible.

Factory candies would have been unheard of 20 years ago, but are now common. Who could even have imagined three layer pearls back in the day?

The introduction of two pack urethanes was driven by the need to keep labour costs down. They don't necessarily perform much better than the acrylics they replaced, but the associated labour cost have dropped by half.

Thirdly we have the manufacturers trying to contain costs by minimising paint use, as I've expanded on before.

Motor cars have become increasingly complex in other areas too. Use of high strength steels and special alloys. 12 years ago I bought a new car which had 7 computers in it and I was amazed. The new Land Rover Defender has close to 80! We are demanding that our cars offer us more and integrate more completely with other aspects of our lives. A new car that didn't connect and integrate with your mobile phone would be a deal breaker. Soon it will do much more.

While I might agree that each level of the supply chain certainly does its best to maximise profitability, we are the ones who are driving technology by demanding more and more.

For those of us in the area of repair or refinishing we just have to keep up. We do get paint company support and training which makes it easier. For those who aren't in this chain it does become increasingly difficult.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:54 pm
I've come across similar from other manufacturers as well, like the red in the Mustang and a similar colour on the Mondeo.


On the Ford......I bet it was code RR....Ruby Red ?
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