Auto Paint store confused me

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:46 am
i am writing you today all the way from South Africa and i hope you might be able to clear a few things up
in reguards to paint types..

I am currently doing my first ever car paintjob..a diy home garage paint job for a 1998 honda civic ek vtec
im not sure if say americans use different terminology for their paint types
So i just need some advice and information to understand it better

Here in South Africa you get 2k paint and 1k paint

1)now i know 1k does not require hardener or so i am told so would a 1k paint job
be easier for a noob rather than 2k without a paint booth?i really want a high gloss finish that pops/

2) is 2k paint acrylic? the auto store here suggested a paint that is 2k acylic.will that clear be compatible with an unhardened base coat?

3) when i told the auto store i want to smash on the clear to then wetsand cut and buff too a deep gloss and then the auto paint store said
i dont require clear coat for their 2k base? i thought 2k paint is base and top coat separate?
4) is only the the clear coat 2k and not the base?what kind of base paint is used then?

i hope you might be able to clear things up cause the auto store really confused me today
i have attached 2 quotes and emails from the auto store so you may have a look
current exchange rate is 1USD = 14.42ZAR in my local currency


"Hi John Here is the quote as requested. This quote is only for basecoat and clear coat because on a 2K you don't have to spray clear over If you want to you have to wait 7 days then sand the car with 1000 just to take of the gloss then spray the clear over. So it takes longer and more work. Kind regrades Alecia"

-----Original Message----- From: info@apcentre.co.za
"Hi Here is the 2nd quote for only 2k paint you don't have to spray clear over the 2k it has a gloss shine itself. Kind regards -----Original Message----- From: info@apcentre.co.za"

quote 2.jpg

paint quote 1.jpg

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:04 am
There are two different paints being quoted.

The first is what is called Single Stage, where the color and clear are combined.
The second requires two stages, where the base (color) coat is applied separately, followed by a clear coat.

In my opinion a beginner is better off with the base coat/clear coat option. This allows you to fix any issues with the color before you apply the clear coat over it.

You will need to shoot at least 3 coats of clear if you plan to cut and buff to high gloss.

The Civic is a small vehicle and should not take a whole lot of paint to get the job done.

I would definitely do more research before spending any money.

Paint store guys are not always the most trustworthy source of information.
1968 Coronet R/T


ACTS 16:31

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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:27 pm
Just to add to 68's post, above, and specifically address OP's questions:

Terminology. Varies from country to country, but some things are common.

1K means a paint that is applied without the use of a hardener. Could be anything from what you put on the ceiling of your bedroom to an enamel for the metal chairs in your garden. For automotive use, 1K generally refers to acrylic lacquer (more about compositions below). Acrylic can be 'single stage' or 'base coat/clear coat'. Single stage means that the paint has the colour in it and it suitable for use as a top coat, i.e. UV and weather resistant, long lasting and essentially a gloss finish. Base coat/clear coat means that a clear is applied over the colour, enhancing gloss and depth. With acrylics there isn't much difference between the paint used as a base coat or that used in a single stage application - some minor changes in the binder contents to increase gloss and protection levels only for the single stage use.

2K generally means a paint that needs a second component (hardener or activator) to make it set/harden/cure. In Australia, 2K is generally the single stage, solid colour paint, requiring hardener, which was originally sold by PPG and the name has extended to all paints of this type. It sounds like, from Alecia's email to you, that it has a similar meaning in SA. 'Two pack' or '2 pac' relate to any other kind of paint that does need a hardener/activator, such as primers, sealers or even clears.

Ignoring nitro-cellulose and earlier technologies, paints are largely based on one of or a combination of two basic chemical structures. These are acrylic and urethane.

In simplistic terms, acrylic (and variations thereof) is used for primers, base (colour) coats and top coats in a 1K system as well as base coats (not suitable for exposure) in a 2K system. Urethane is generally used in topcoats (both coloured and clear) in 2K systems, generally using isocyanate hardeners. To make things even more complex, the technologies can be combined so we have acrylic urethane clears, for example.

Completely confused yet? Ok, time to simplify a bit.

When painting your car you have a choice of systems, generally one that needs a hardener or one that doesn't.

Acrylic or 1K does not need hardener. Because of this it is much safer since isocyanate hardeners can cause anything from allergic reactions to death in the event of an over-exposure. In the UK, for example, it is the only type of paint that can be used in home, i.e. non-professional applications. Similar legislation exists in other jurisdictions.

Acrylic is not the second class product that it's often painted to be. :wink: Many show cars are painted in acrylic and this is because it is capable of achieving gloss and flatness levels that, IMHO, far surpass those from 2K paints. However, it is, by nature, a low solids paint that needs more coats applied to get the same dry film thickness. So a bit more work to apply it and it nearly always needs to be cut and buffed after drying. These steps and their labour costs are why it is rarely used in repair shops. Because each layer in an acrylic system is essentially the same chemical composition it actually forms a more homogenous coating with each coat literally melting, like a weld, into the previous one. Properly applied it does not suffer from clear coat delamination like 2K systems and it is much easier to repair with blends being possible. It can last, in some environments, much longer than a 2K system, but can be sensitive to some oil based products.

2K systems need a hardener. They can be single stage or base/clear systems. In single stage types (usually solid colours) the paint dries glossy (this is the nature of the binders used, not clear having been mixed with the paint), while base/clear systems rely on the clear to provide gloss and protection. 2K, as above, needs less labour so is favoured in production/repair shops. The hardener, isocyanate, is highly poisonous. It can suffer from clear coat delamination but is more resistant to some chemicals, particularly petrol, than acrylic is.

Water based systems use a water based base coat and a urethane or acrylic urethane clear coat. No such thing as single stage water based paint, unless you count house paint or that stuff your kids spread all over themselves in kindergarten.

ChimeraZA wrote:1)now i know 1k does not require hardener or so i am told so would a 1k paint job be easier for a noob rather than 2k without a paint booth?i really want a high gloss finish that pops/


Easier? Probably, and much safer without a proper booth. As above, acrylic is used in many show quality jobs, but you'll need to put on more coats and spend time rubbing it back and buffing. It is generally easier to work than 2K products, so there is that and it is usually much cheaper to buy.

ChimeraZA wrote:2) is 2k paint acrylic? the auto store here suggested a paint that is 2k acylic.will that clear be compatible with an unhardened base coat?


Always check the Technical Data Sheet, but a 2K acrylic clear would generally be perfectly compatible with an unhardened base coat. 2K acrylic clear is not the same as 1K acrylic clear, even without the hardener.

ChimeraZA wrote:3) when i told the auto store i want to smash on the clear to then wetsand cut and buff too a deep gloss and then the auto paint store said
i dont require clear coat for their 2k base? i thought 2k paint is base and top coat separate?


I hate it when painters use an expression that is then used by people who don't understand the original meaning. If you are inexperienced then "smashing" on the clear will probably result in most of it ending up on the floor. Do it properly and you'll spend a lot less time fixing the problems.

Sounds like a terminology problem there. They've quoted you for a 2K solid, single stage system and a 2K base/clear system. I doubt that their base doesn't require clear, but that would be true for the 2K single stage. Some people clear coat over single stage after letting it dry for a few days and then rubbing out bigger defects. Worth it? I don't think so - the gloss you get will be the gloss that the clear is capable of, depending on application and what's done to it. Might as well just clear over base coat - same result and way faster. Using a better quality clear and the right application method can give you a much better result. I keep a premium clear for those jobs that demand it while I use an everyday clear (much cheaper) for those that don't. Every time I use the premium clear I'm reminded of just how much better it is, even straight off the gun.

ChimeraZA wrote:4) is only the the clear coat 2k and not the base?what kind of base paint is used then?


Base coat, for use under clear, does not require hardener. In some applications a small amount is added, but that's beyond the scope of this reply. The base is probably a modified acrylic co-polymer.

Lucky for you it's pouring rain here today and I can't work outside on my current project.
Chris



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:16 am
:goodpost: NICE WRITE UP ! i'm OLD SCHOOL but if i were the O/P and can get it i would use acrylic lacquer. its somewhat a step backwards form what we do over hear but its really easy to use and can produce excilent gloss very easy.
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:40 pm
badsix wrote:its somewhat a step backwards form what we do


Why, Jay?

The way I see it:
Pros
Cheaper?
Easier to use?
Less orange peel?
Safer?
Less dirt in finish?
Easier to sand (primer)?
Easier to wet sand and buff (topcoat)?
Better adhesion to substrate?
No clearcoat delamination?
Better gloss?

Cons
Primers are low solids compared to 2K and can shrink and outline underlying imperfections?
Lower solids content means more coats required?
Less paint company support for colour formulae?
Sensitivity to thinners and petrol?
Need for labour time to cut & buff?
Chris



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:20 pm
For one its hard to buy here and almost no one has ever used it unless your so old you can't hold a spray gun anymore. its just not popular over here everyone wants to use base clear. i've used many gal of lacquer and really like it, like i said its actually fun to use I'm with you on your pros and cons :goodjob:
Jay D.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 6:59 am
While I used to use, and loved the look of lacquer, I would often tell new painters to avoid it, mostly because it has less abrasion resistance, chips easier (especially when it ages), and has less protection against harsh chemicals. But your assessment of it's advantages are 100%!

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:10 am
So are we helping or confusing the OP?

Should we have him do his first paint job with 30+ year old technology or up to date products?

I you were a newbie and this was your post, would you understand any of the answers?
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ACTS 16:31



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:54 am
Acrylic is not the second class product that it's often painted to be. :wink: Many show cars are painted in acrylic and this is because it is capable of achieving gloss and flatness levels that, IMHO, far surpass those from 2K paints. However, it is, by nature, a low solids paint that needs more coats applied to get the same dry film thickness. So a bit more work to apply it and it nearly always needs to be cut and buffed after drying. These steps and their labour costs are why it is rarely used in repair shops. Because each layer in an acrylic system is essentially the same chemical composition it actually forms a more homogenous coating with each coat literally melting, like a weld, into the previous one. Properly applied it does not suffer from clear coat delamination like 2K systems and it is much easier to repair with blends being possible. It can last, in some environments, much longer than a 2K system, but can be sensitive to some oil based products.

I assumed he is talking acrylic lacquer here and if available to the O/P is just one way to go.as said its easy to work with. i'll keep quiet now.
Jay D.
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:49 pm
'68 Coronet R/T wrote:So are we helping or confusing the OP?


Fair question. I was trying to address this:

ChimeraZA wrote:now i know 1k does not require hardener or so i am told so would a 1k paint job be easier for a noob rather than 2k without a paint booth?i really want a high gloss finish that pops/


Waffled on a bit, but OP hasn't been back since I posted. Let's see if he expresses thanks or confusion.
Chris
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